Script Registry -- for script authors; track your script usage

[Veracity]

Between this and BCC, I'm wondering if perhaps begging and pleading with fewyn is in order...

You know, I have said this before. I really, really, do not like having third-party script authors - no matter how virtuous and wonderful they are - requiring that their script users go to their personal sites to interact with privately stored data.

I said this before regarding zarqon's ISP, zarqon pooh-poohed my concerns, fewyn said he'd be willing to host the data, but since zarqon saw no problem, nothing happened.

I said very early on that I was not willing to send my data to BCC so that he could use his own personally provided .php scripts and data storage to format it for me. I said that I'd have preferred a solution that stored the data on a publicly maintained site - like fewyn's and generated the output locally with an ASH script. No PHP needed. Again, my opinion was pooh-poohed, and here we are. My response: I tried his script once, he has a page which reflects my status as of several years ago, and I have long since deleted the local data files and snapshot script and what have you.

Now, the REAL concerns from the above:

1) If you store the data publicly and format it locally, only KoLmafia people can use that data and see somebody else's "snapshot" page. I shrug. I could not give a damn if somebody else can look at my page (for vanity?); what matters to me is that _I_ can crunch the data and display it locally for my own personal use.

2) For zarqon's map files - fine, I guess. Until his server goes down, in which case, it is not fine.

Tell me again why we do not host the map files on kolmafia.us?

This all assumes that fewyn will continue providing the Big Huge Important service to the KoLmafia community that he has done reliably for years now.

I think fewyn rocks. Thank you.

 

[Catch-22]

Well, technically kolmafia.us is Fewyn's personally owned site. It's just that Fewyn has a better track record than zarqon when it comes to not breaking something on it.

I agree with your sentiment though, as I said in the post about automatically updating scripts, the only places I trust when it comes to KoLmafia are kolmafia.sourceforge.net and kolmafia.us.

 

[Bale]

...but it doesn't print a report, delete any kmails, or update the registry. There haven't been any new users registered for a couple of days, so I think it's safe to say everyone's got the same problem. Whatever it is. Change in the site database layout?

OH! I'm happy to learn that I'm not the only one having the problem. His ISP has hated me in the past so I thought it might be more of the same.

Between this and BCC, I'm wondering if perhaps begging and pleading with fewyn is in order...

I totally agree! zarqon is awesome, but sometimes his site has gotten wonky for days at a time while fewyn's flakes out only rarely and very briefly.

Tell me again why we do not host the map files on kolmafia.us?

Because zarqon invented the system and is very proud of it. I think he has ideas to improve it and knows that will be problematical for him if he loses control of it.

 

[Catch-22]

Because zarqon invented the system and is very proud of it. I think he has ideas to improve it and knows that will be problematical for him if he loses control of it.

I can certainly agree with this statement, maintaining creative control over a system you have invented is an important factor in keeping someone motivated on further developing that system.

I wonder if you and Veracity are talking about two different things though, as zarqon didn't invent the ability to load maps from a URL, right? I think he may have certainly championed it's use, though.

 

[Bale]

I wonder if you and Veracity are talking about two different things though, as zarqon didn't invent the ability to load maps from a URL, right? I think he may have certainly championed it's use, though.

Zarqon didn't invent Mafia's ability to do that, but he was the one who pointed it out to the community that file_to_map() could be used in that way. (I think it might have been an unintended feature.) He then created a system for uploading maps to a website as well as associated functions for downloading those scripts and checking the date of the last upload so that they could be updated properly. It's pretty much zarqon's baby.

Frankly I think it would be a good thing though if it could be hosted on kolmafia.us

 

[Catch-22]

I think it might have been an unintended feature.

Well, it's a relic that comes from the spellcast library (originally not even designed for KoLmafia), which dates back to the very first revision of KoLmafia.

Edit: I can only go back to the first SVN revision. I believe KoLmafia was on CVS before that, but I don't know how to see the history of that.

At some stage, someone intentionally added the ability to load URLs into spellcast. When the file_to_map() command was created, Veracity would've just used the existing BufferedReader functions already written for KoLmafia, which usually link back to the original spellcast functions.

I have no idea who worked on the original spellcast stuff, but I'm guessing Holatuwol was involved somehow. I'd be interested in knowing more though, for historic reasons.

Edit 2:

r1296 Allow URLs to be used as universal data source

 

[StDoodle]

I said that I'd have preferred a solution that stored the data on a publicly maintained site - like fewyn's and generated the output locally with an ASH script. No PHP needed.

Well, I feel there is value to putting the snapshot up where it can be looked at by people who don't use mafia. Ideally, I think, we'd have a way to grab the data from somewhere on kolmafai.us and just have raw access, format it for display in the relay browser, or actually visit a page here and have it formatted by a simple script (I don't care if it's php, perl, goatse-code. Ok, maybe not that one...). Also ideally, there'd be an option to store it locally only vs. publicly; those who only want to crunch & look at it themselves, and not make it public, could simply choose not to publish their data file.

RE: Pt. 1: Hardcore Nation & other clans make a good deal of use out of BCC's snapshot for helping get a feel of what advice to give to clannies. I would be quite sad if that was no longer doable for non-mafia using clan members.

RE: Pt. 2: I've never heard a good argument for keeping that info on zarqon's servers vs. here. Honestly, if kolmafia.us goes down, there will be significant communication problems for a bit for mafia anyway; why introduce another point of failure? Why not put it here, so that perhaps fewyn could assign people he trusts to maintain whatever is needed for it, independent of whoever started the first site to use it?

I wish I had been more vocal about this before; but everything was going ok at the time, and I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings / pride / whatever. But, every time either site / script has a hiccup, I cringe a little knowing that this could have been avoided to some extent.

Also, one final point: I trust BCC & zarqon about as much as it's possible to trust anyone, but I honestly dislike the precedent. The next person to roll-their-own site for mafia data may well not be so benevolent.

 

[bumcheekcity]

Between this and BCC, I'm wondering if perhaps begging and pleading with fewyn is in order...

I'm not quite following the context of this.

 

[Catch-22]

I'm not quite following the context of this.

Zarqon's server malfunctioning, causing the script registry to stop working, begging and pleading with Fewyn to use his server instead of Zarqon's. I believe you were just lumped in as another person running popular things on a server not controlled by Fewyn.

 

[StDoodle]

Well, there was a note on his page for a while, can't remember the exact wording, but it gave the impression that the script wouldn't be maintained at nearly the same level. Since no one else here has or could easily expect to get access to the site-dependent code, it would mean a great deal of work would be lost.

 

[bumcheekcity]

You know, I have said this before. I really, really, do not like having third-party script authors - no matter how virtuous and wonderful they are - requiring that their script users go to their personal sites to interact with privately stored data.

I said this before regarding zarqon's ISP, zarqon pooh-poohed my concerns, fewyn said he'd be willing to host the data, but since zarqon saw no problem, nothing happened.

I said very early on that I was not willing to send my data to BCC so that he could use his own personally provided .php scripts and data storage to format it for me. I said that I'd have preferred a solution that stored the data on a publicly maintained site - like fewyn's and generated the output locally with an ASH script. No PHP needed. Again, my opinion was pooh-poohed, and here we are. My response: I tried his script once, he has a page which reflects my status as of several years ago, and I have long since deleted the local data files and snapshot script and what have you.

For what it's worth, it's clear from feedback that the vast majority of the snapshot script's popularity comes from not having to do anything to share it. Literally, *click* and then you can show everybody by just giving a link to a webpage. The original, of course, generated wiki code, but copy and pasting that was annoying. Just displaying information locally would mean it would be harder to share because it just kicked out tons of stuff to the gCLI.

But yeah, it's a reasonable problem, I might not have time to keep it updated, and though I decided against removing discoveries in the end there's nothing saying I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow and all snapshot updating will be lost - I certainly concede that point.

 

[Veracity]

For what it's worth, it's clear from feedback that the vast majority of the snapshot script's popularity comes from not having to do anything to share it.

I believe that. I saw it as a tracking tool for my own use, but yeah - vanity is a perfectly valid reason to want to share - as is data sharing with clannies to get advice, as StDoodle mentioned. Not for me, but everybody doesn't have to be like me.

The original, of course, generated wiki code, but copy and pasting that was annoying.

Not to mention the hypocritical Wiki admins. I weighed in on your side on the Talk page, and at least got some of them to remove equally large vanity pages from their own User pages, but that was probably the last straw for me, as far as wanting to ever contribute to the Wiki again. I keep far, far away. I update KoLmafia data files and if somebody wants to mine those for more accurate Wiki data, be my guest.

Just displaying information locally would mean it would be harder to share because it just kicked out tons of stuff to the gCLI.

Seems to me that this could be done with a Relay Script. Define a data file format. Gather data and store it on your local computer - or, if sharing is important, to a publicly provided server - using a published script. Then, there could be any number of Relay Scripts to read that data and display things by formatting it locally into HTML. The formatting scripts being local, people could modify and customize however they wanted.

Well, as I said, that would suit MY needs, but not the needs of others who want to share with non-KoLmafia users.

But yeah, it's a reasonable problem, I might not have time to keep it updated, and though I decided against removing discoveries in the end there's nothing saying I won't get hit by a bus tomorrow and all snapshot updating will be lost - I certainly concede that point.

Keep safe. That is a problem with any public site maintained by a single person, though.

 

[zarqon]

I've recently changed server location and there were a few issues after switching the nameservers. Today I had enough time to track down the Map Manager and Registry's issues -- in the latter's case, links to my domain are not presently working without the www prefix -- if you're in a browser, you get redirected. Using visit_url(), you simply get an empty string. So I just added the 'www.' to the script and posted the update. You should find it's working again. I was also able to upload to the Map Manager without any problem after a few tweaks.

@Bale: It should be fairly obvious why my site gets "wonky for days at a time", while kolmafia.us doesn't. Look at what apps you're depending on to work on each server. Kolmafia.us is running vBulletin and MediaWiki, which have been developed by teams of people and tested by entire online communities, and their dependencies are also on the server (PHP, SQL, etc). The whole thing is self-contained, and can be updated all at once, using stable, thoroughly road-tested updates. Now look at the Map Manager and Script Registry. These were written by a single hobbyist in his free time, usually only tested by that same hobbyist, and have dependencies all over the place (PHP and file access on the server, KoLmafia, KoL itself). So when my script stops working, it could have any number of sources -- changes to KoL, changes to mafia, changes to PHP, changes to server configuration, etc. Or maybe I was just working on an update live and got a phone call midway through! For some reason, people have tended to immediately jump to the conclusion that it's my host causing the trouble, rather than simply the state of flux that my scripts must live in due to a frequently changing environment.

I am still of the opinion that there has been no significant difference between kolmafia.us and zachbardon.com in terms of host quality. There have been far more user-experience problems with the scripts on my server simply because 1) breakages happen during a busy spell, so I don't know until people report it in whatever thread -- and then it usually takes me some more time to getting around to fixing it, 2) the scripts, because they depend on many external things, most of which are frequently updated, will break far more often than the mostly self-contained apps on kolmafia.us, and 3) the apps run on kolmafia.us are professional and stable, and basically will not break unless fewyn specifically breaks them.

If we were to move my scripts to kolmafia.us, the problems would not go away. They would continue, but now they would be happening on kolmafia.us. Since I have a close personal relationship with my host and have always found him competent and responsive, I'm not likely to want to move my problems away from a friend who is known to be helpful in solving them over to a relative stranger who I personally have found to be quite friendly but often unresponsive. Basically what I'm saying is that trust is a factor for me too -- where it exists I highly value it, and would not see that connection severed simply because it's considered third-party. From where I'm sitting, my host is a trusted party and kolmafia.us is third-party.

@StDoodle: Is that at least an understandable reason for you, Doodle, if not a "good" reason?

tl;dr: The problem is the scripts/scripter, not the host. The problems would happen regardless of host.

@Veracity: I'm sorry you felt I pooh-pooh'ed your opinion rather than simply disagreeing with it. I have reasons for thinking the way I do, and you have your reasons as well. If I disagreed, I hope I was clear that it was due to the belief I held in my reasons, and not due to any pooh-pooh-worthiness of your reasons. From what I know of you, the likelihood of you holding an opinion worthy of being pooh-poohed is quite small indeed.

 

[heeheehee]

links to my domain are not presently working without the www prefix -- if you're in a browser, you get redirected. Using visit_url(), you simply get an empty string.

Sounds like it might be useful for visit_url to follow redirects (i.e. HTTP response codes 301/302)? I'll write up a feature request (with very basic patch).

edit: done

 

[Bale]

Not to mention the hypocritical Wiki admins. I weighed in on your side on the Talk page, and at least got some of them to remove equally large vanity pages from their own User pages, but that was probably the last straw for me, as far as wanting to ever contribute to the Wiki again. I keep far, far away.

I remember that nonsense. I still don't know why they even cared what people put on their personal pages as long as it isn't lewd. It's like one of them decided to get a bug up their buns to assert dominance over territory when it was no different from what they normally do on their own personal pages. Then when you called them on their hypocrisy they decided to do as they were saying just to avoid backing down. I understand your feeling, but I still update the wiki and fix its errors because I find it a helpful resource and want it to be helpful for others as well. Despite the arrogance of the wiki's internal culture.

Keep safe. That is a problem with any public site maintained by a single person, though.

This site also. It would be nice if the keys to kolmafia were shared with someone so we could get a mirror in case of the site's loss.

I've recently changed server location and there were a few issues after switching the nameservers. Today I had enough time to track down the Map Manager and Registry's issues -- in the latter's case, links to my domain are not presently working without the www prefix -- if you're in a browser, you get redirected. Using visit_url(), you simply get an empty string. So I just added the 'www.' to the script and posted the update. You should find it's working again. I was also able to upload to the Map Manager without any problem after a few tweaks.

Thanks!!!!

@Bale: [huge snip]

Mostly I'm sorry I was offensive. It's quite true that you made a good point for the difference in down-time. A large part of my attitude is that to me fewyn is the trusted friend and your host is the large unknown.

 

[zarqon]

No offense taken, I can understand how these things would add up to make my host seem less reliable. Just wanted people to assign blame where it was due -- me! -- rather than my host. I sent him a message about the 'www' issue at the same time as my previous post, and when I woke up this morning there was an email saying he'd fixed it.

 

[Erich]

I understand your feeling, but I still update the wiki and fix its errors because I find it a helpful resource and want it to be helpful for others as well. Despite the arrogance of the wiki's internal culture.

I have problems with the wiki for these reasons too, and I still update as well. I can't, with good conscience, refer a n00b to the wiki without doing my part to maintain its relevance. So yeah, I sympathize 100%, but I think that the benefit of updating the wiki is that a new player knows what's up. As we all know, or should know, KoL is still not n00b friendly, and Mafia is the deep fried irony that coats it (mafia is very not n00b friendly [you know it's true, don't hide it], despite it being there to make life easier for KoL players).

 

[Bale]

LoL! Too true.

BTW, I've noticed all the updates you do on the wiki. I was very happy when I saw you adding stats for Bees. I hated not having those for the whole time I did BHY.

 

[Winterbay]

LoL! Too true.

BTW, I've noticed all the updates you do on the wiki. I was very happy when I saw you adding stats for Bees. I hated not having those for the whole time I did BHY.

Yeah, that was the main reason I added the semi-spaded/guessed values for the bugbears to WHAM.

 

[Bale]

It's kinda nice that Manuel will keep us from ever again lacking monster data. On the other hand, it seems kinda contrary to the spirit of KoL for the game to just give that information away instantly. Ah well, I guess the intense monster spaders of yesteryear no longer exist and spading just isn't a large part of KoL anymore so we might as well get in-game stats.