Bug - Waiting for Info Strange result from the Modifier Maximizer

Morgan Blair

Morgan Blair

Member
Maximize: spell dmg
Equipment: on hand
Max price: don't check
Include: [unchecked]

210 combinations checked, best score 500.0

equip hat sugar chapeau
keep weapon: Brimstone Bludgeon (Muscle +50%, Mysticality -20%, Weapon Damage +30)
keep off-hand: big bumboozer marble
equip shirt psycho sweater
equip pants sugar shorts
keep acc1: navel ring of navel gazing
keep acc2: tiny plastic Naughty Sorceress
keep acc3: tiny plastic Naughty Sorceress
keep familiar: tiny top hat and cane

I have a teflon spatula in my inventory, but it's not suggesting that. Then, I bought a silver cheese-slicer, updated the Modifier Maximizer, and now it's telling me to equip a rib of the Bonerdagon and unequip a big bumboozer marble, for -165 spell dmg. I do, update, and it tells me to keep it. I manually change to a silver cheese-slicer, update, and it tells me to keep it.

All other things being unchanged:
Brimstone Bludgeon + big bumboozer marble = 430.00
rib of the Bonerdagon = 365.00
silver cheese-slicer + big bumboozer marble = 440.00
teflon spatula + big bumboozer marble = 470.00

Why won't Modifier Maximizer suggest the teflon spatula?
 
jasonharper

jasonharper

Developer
I'm unable to exactly duplicate your setup, but by manually excluding various items that are genuinely better, the maximizer doesn't seem to have any difficulty in suggesting a teflon spatula for me.

To debug this further, I'd need to see the CLI output from maximizing "spell dmg, dump" (which will dump additional data about the items being considered). It would also be interesting to see the results of manually equipping a teflon spatula and then maximizing.
 
R

Ruby Eyes

Member
If I may add my strange results:

Maximize: 7 raveosity
Equipment: on hand
Max price: don't check
Include: (unchecked)

Results: 702 combinations checked, best score 0.0

Current score: 0.00 (FAILED) <> Predicted: ---
equip hat rave visor (+0)
equip weapon rave whistle (+0)
equip off-hand glowstick on a string (+0)
keep shirt: yak anorak
keep pants: miner's pants
keep acc1: mysterious silver lapel pin
equip acc2 candy necklace (+0)
equip acc3 pacifier necklace (+0)

I have to say, this is not exactly helpful. I'm using v14.7 r9702.

@morgan: I'm not receiving this board's e-mails anymore either. In case of my subscriptions that may be due to threads having been merged though ...
 
Last edited:
S

slyz

Developer
That is normal behavior. "7 raveosity" is special (just like 4 clownosity): either you have 7, and succeed, either you don't have 7, and fail (and everything gives +0).
 
R

Ruby Eyes

Member
Well, actually those items above resulted in 7 raveosity. However, if I select to optimize for "raveosity" (and mafia does give that option), it should also tell me which item gives how much of that stuff. Otherwise, this option would be pretty much useless. I still had to go by trial and error, which the modifier maximizer was supposed to avoid, no?
 
S

slyz

Developer
Ok, I forgot some of those counted for 2. I can get the same thing by maximizing for 4 clownosity: the GUI shows that the current score is 0.0 (FAILED), even though it proposes to equip enough items to get 4 clownosity.

This is simply a particularity of bitmap modifiers. If I use the maximize CLI of ASH commands, it works as expected:
Code: 
> maximize 4 clownosity, -tie

Maximizing...
8848 combinations checked, best score 0.0
Holding clownskin buckler...
Equipment changed.
Putting on clownskin belt...
Equipment changed.
Code: 
> ash maximize( "4 clownosity, -tie", false );

Maximizing...
8848 combinations checked, best score 0.0
Holding clownskin buckler...
Equipment changed.
Putting on clownskin belt...
Equipment changed.
Returned: true
The ASH version even returns true, so it's simply a quirky display rather than a really strange result.
 
fronobulax

fronobulax

Developer
Staff member
slyz said:
so it's simply a quirky display rather than a really strange result.
Click to expand...

If it is just a quirky display is there a way to display things in a less quirky fashion? If we can figure that out then we have a feature request.

This has come up before and Jason has very good reasons for treating bitmap modifiers differently but as a user I remain confused by a tool that proposes equipment changes that would result in 6 clownosity and labels the result "(FAIL)". There is nothing here that needs to be fixed except operator awareness and expectation but it is not as friendly and intuitive as other mafia displays. IMO. YMMV.
 
roippi

roippi

Developer
It actually doesn't label the result FAIL, it labels your current gear as FAIL. There are two separate issues, as I see it, both cosmetic:

-Current score always displays FAILED if it is less than the threshold specified. Predicted score, on the other hand, properly displays FAILED only if the highlighted items add up to the requested threshold.
-Individual items display (+0) instead of the amount of -osity that they add.
 
R

Ruby Eyes

Member
Well, if point (1) is true, then it appears that point (2) actually results in +0 being added, not just displayed (which sums up to 0 as well, of course), seeing that my rave items above did match the threshold (as in, they let me enter the Nemesis's lair).
 
roippi

roippi

Developer
roippi said:
-Current score always displays FAILED if it is less than the threshold specified. Predicted score, on the other hand, properly displays FAILED only if the highlighted items add up to the requested threshold.
Click to expand...

I should point out that this behavior exists for other things, as well. My mainstat is around 700 right now; if I maximize "mainstat, 800 min" I get equivalent behavior. So this may be intended behavior (true, my current mainstat is not greater than 800), though I think it is slightly confusing.
 
Theraze

Theraze

Active member
Ruby Eyes said:
Well, if point (1) is true, then it appears that point (2) actually results in +0 being added, not just displayed (which sums up to 0 as well, of course), seeing that my rave items above did match the threshold (as in, they let me enter the Nemesis's lair).
Click to expand...

If that is the case, then at least one of your items probably has an incorrect raveosity... the question is, which.
 
R

Ruby Eyes

Member
I cannot tell, really. When I equipped the items mentioned, the green left pane showed 7/7 as well, so that data seems to be correct.
 
fronobulax

fronobulax

Developer
Staff member
roippi said:
It actually doesn't label the result FAIL, it labels your current gear as FAIL.
Click to expand...

I don't suppose there was any way I was supposed to know this, was there, i.e. that it is my current gear that fails and not the ability to succeed if the mazimizers suggestions are followed? That said, now I understand what the Maximizer is telling me. I almost never run the Mazimizer for clownosity except when I know I have less than 4 and want a suggestion/hint about what to change. Once I have that suggestion I never look at the Maximizer to confirm I have swapped the right gear. I use the x/4 display in the char pane for that instead.

roippi said:
Predicted score, on the other hand, properly displays FAILED only if the highlighted items add up to the requested threshold.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand that. Could you explain or did you leave out a negation somewhere?

At 0/4 I get "Current score: 0.00 (FAILED) Predicted: ---" and a bunch of gear highlighted. When I equip all I am at 4/4 and get "Current score: 0.00 Predicted: ---". If the first line had told me "Predicted: 4" I probably would never focused on "FAILED" or misunderstood it to mean that the Mazimizer had FAILed to achieve the goal.

Thanks.
 
roippi

roippi

Developer
Sure.

I have 0 clownosity currently. I do "4 clownosity -tie" in the maximizer. It recommends I put on a clown wig and a clownskin harness.

When I highlight (i.e. just click on it, don't equip or exec anything) one of those two items, predicted changes from "---" to "0.00 (+0, FAILED)". If I select BOTH the necessary items, predicted changes to "0.00 (+0)".

Cosmetic bug 1: Current always displays (FAILED)
Cosmetic bug 2: Those zeros above should reflect the appropriate clownosity of the items
 
roippi

roippi

Developer
jasonharper said:
No, it only displays FAILED in the specific case of your current equipment not meeting a minimum requirement.
Click to expand...

Right, I mentioned this above. It makes complete sense to me, it just is confusing to a lot of people who see the large (FAILED) and don't properly mentally parse that it's talking about your CURRENT gear.

Clownosity/Raveosity are not additive properties.
Click to expand...

Admittedly I don't really understand this.
 
R

Ruby Eyes

Member
roippi said:
Admittedly I don't really understand this.
Click to expand...
I assume this is directed at the fact that it's only adding clownosity/raveosity for 1 instance of that item equipped, as in, 2 rave whistles won't add 2 raveosity, neither would do glowstick accessories of the same color (the accessories from the volcano island are equip-1-only anyway), or wearing 3 polka-dot bow ties which would still only yield 2 clownosity, not 6.

If this was *not* what was meant, it's mostly nonsense. It's a number, so it can be added. Mafia knows these numbers, so it can just sum them up into a variable which then properly displays the result (instead of 0).
 
S

slyz

Developer
jasonharper said:
Clownosity/Raveosity are not additive properties.
Click to expand...
I never really understood what bitmap modifiers are either. Or maybe what we don't understand is why Clownosity/Raveosity are bitmap modifiers instead of regular float modifiers.

Does it mean that, if the maximizer can't get a total of 4 clownosity, it shouldn't equip any clownosity items at all?
 
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