Someone trying to profit from my work

[Catch-22]

mottsy, please calm down.

Let's be realistic here - a monthly subscription is impossible to enforce and I sincerely doubt dj_d is making thousands a month from this. Finally, remember that a Mr. A is not transferable back into cash.

Well, yes, ASH is robust enough to enforce a subscription, but let's not get into technical details here. It's all theoretical. NO, I do not think dj_d is laughing all the way to the bank, I'm only using him as an example.

This misses the point as it assumes it is the consumer who should be able to apply their values and pre-conceptions to the release of a script. This is not the case. The producer is the one who gets to decide that. If the author thinks s/he should be paid for their time, then they can charge an amount that reflects that. If they would rather charge according to what they think the benefits would be, then that's fine too.

Whilst in the real world, I would tend to agree with you, in this particular case I believe it is the user who offers the bounty for what they think the script would be worth to them, if a scripter sees this as an acceptable bounty, they take up the challenge. If nobody thinks it's an acceptable bounty, then nobody takes up the bounty and the script doesn't get done.

In the case script pricing, holatuwol has this to say.

Name a reasonable price for your script [request], based on difficulty and time expected to complete

As per the guidelines laid out by holatuwol, it should be the script purchaser that sets the price.

The idea behind this is not to encourage people to buy/sell scripts -- the idea is to encourage people to do more of the legwork themselves by assigning an often unthinkable price tag to scripts which run on a free engine to a free game, and if they're unwilling to do any legwork, they will have to place substantial material value on the time that others invest in writing scripts they were too lazy to write themselves.

In the case of dj_d's script, the legwork has already been done. People are now just paying for the script so they can use it, they are not offering a bounty so that somebody can do the work for them, they are paying somebody for work that has already been done.

I fail to see see how offering a pre-made, one-script-fits-all for the low, low price of just one Mr. Accessory encourages people to do more of the leg-work for themselves.

Another of hola's concerns has also been raised, as evidenced by Byrn's actions. dj_d selling his script has encouraged other people to buy/sell scripts.

 

[Bale]

I can't figure out why people are talking as if dj_d might be the bad guy here.

All the scripts he packages were done so with permission of the authors. That makes a HUGE difference.

And for what it's worth, he added a a lot more value than "glue" code.

 

[Catch-22]

I can't figure out why people are talking as if dj_d might be the bad guy here.

Yeah, and I'm sorry if I make it seem like he is. Of course everyone has the right to be upset if somebody else is unfairly making a profit off work they haven't done.

I'm trying to delve in to the reasons why it might have turned out this way.

I also have not seen dj_d's script, so I really don't mean to come across as undervaluing the work he has done. To me the script is worth nothing, because I have no real need for it.

 

[Bale]

To me the script is worth nothing, because I have no real need for it.

I can agree with that. He gave it to me freely as recognition for a contributing member of this community, but I've never made any serious use of it other than the occasional aftercore use of farm.ash. However, I have read a bit of the code, and he's done a very nice job.

Like you, I have no need and place no subjective value upon it, but I can easily see the value for others.

 

[Catch-22]

Like you, I have no need and place no subjective value upon it, but I can easily see the value for others.

The value I can see in it, is the support that comes with it. I know because I have seen dj_d try to fix problems that happen with the script as they arise.

To me that is what could warrant paying for a script that has already been made and then, you're not paying for the script itself, you're paying for ongoing support from dj_d in the case of a problem.

By that reasoning, dj_d shouldn't feel threatened by Byrn because people know when it comes to the support they receive from dj_d, their Mr. A was worth it.

I still stand by what I have said about charging for a script though.

 

[aqualectrix]

I fail to see see how offering a pre-made, one-script-fits-all for the low, low price of just one Mr. Accessory encourages people to do more of the leg-work for themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean by leg-work, but I'm going to assume you mean scripting. If I'm wrong, obviously this will be way off-base.

dj_d has made it very clear that he will give away the password to anyone who contributes to the Mafia scripting community or the Mafia community. When I saw ascend.ash (and, more to the point, farm.ash, because even though I'm not very good at making meat I like to do it) I decided neither of them were worth a Mr. A to me. But I also wanted them. I looked through the forums and found a post where, essentially, dj offered the password as a bounty for rewriting his LevelUp script. (I believe he said something like "Whenever someone asks for the password I point them to LevelUp and tell them to rewrite it.")

I rewrote the LevelUp script, using it as an opportunity to learn ash. I had no intention of demanding the password for it, just a hope -- and anyway I was having fun; I'm a coding geek. I presented it to dj in the LevelUp thread, saying I hoped he would find some of my changes useful. I didn't mention the password; that seemed rude.

dj_d immediately sent me the password via PM, and moreover offered to refund my Mr. A if I had previously purchased his scripts. I tell you, I felt pretty encouraged.

Because of this, I was able to help debug an issue that I and a few others were having related to the massive amount of output generated by farm.ash.

Recently dj_d saw my work on PriceAdvisor and again offered me the ascend.ash password. Again, he offered to refund me if I'd previously purchased it. (He's a busy guy; I assume my name had not lingered in his memory.) Two things inspired had PriceAdvisor (and SmashLib): the desire not to do all the math and looking up it does by hand when I clean out my inventory, and the desire for farm.ash to be a little smarter and more flexible about how it values item drops when I use it for farming advice.

LevelUp is free; anyone who wants can use dj's version. (Not mine, though, as some of dj's files would have to be uploaded to zarqon's Map Manager first, something which I didn't feel I should do without permission.) PriceAdvisor is free. SmashLib is free. The entire community has gained, even just a little bit if I'm not to flatter my ego, because a Mr. A is not the only way to get access to these scripts. I was absolutely encouraged to start scripting and "do my own leg-work" by this.

If you ever write a script, and it uses recursion, and it doesn't fail in wonky ways, you can thank the fact that I got interested in scripting, wrote PriceAdvisor, and filed a bug report. And then you can thank the Mafia devs, who did the actual fixing! (On the other hand, if you remember a few weeks ago when Mafia was dumping error logs for everything... you can thank another of my bug reports for that.)

As others have said, dj_d profits from his own work, "glue code" or not. He's included the work of others, yes, but with permission. He hasn't fiddled with someone else's code and then tried to sell that without permission. (For example, I would never have dreamed of trying to sell my rewrite of LevelUp, even though I think it's a little bit value-added.)

(And I may be wrong, but I don't think dj_d "feels threatened" by this thief so much as feels angry that his work is being stolen? It's a violation. Wouldn't you be angry in a similar situation?)

Very well, you accept that dj_d is not a bad guy for charging for his script, right? But you stand by what you said about charging for scripts. At this point I'm a bit lost on what you said; too many specific replies to specific points. Perhaps you can clarify:

Do you think that offering bounties for scripts is wrong?
Do you think that charging for already-written scripts is wrong?
Do you think that one person charging for an already-written script encourages others to charge similarly?
Do you think that one person charging for a script encourages others to steal it and redistribute it, charging for the redistribution?
Is charging for scripts, in fact, the root of all evil? (Sorry, I know you don't believe this, I just liked the build-up of the rhetoric...)

Also, have you read the discussion thread where dj lays out his reasons for charging? Have you read the first post of the ascend.ash thread, or the first post of the farm.ash thread? I get the feeling you're arguing on an ideals level rather than one which is familiar with the context of this particular instance. (I could be wrong, though.) And that's okay. If you have issues with charging for scripts, though, maybe this thread is not the right place; it's more concerned with this instance of theft than the big question of charging.

 

[Raven434]

(I'm not Richard Stallman, who once told me to my face that I was "evil" because I worked for a company that charged money for software.)

Yeah....

He kinda always struck me as a jackass.

A very smart jackass.

Albeit a jackass, nonetheless.

;-)

 

[Catch-22]

Do you think that offering bounties for scripts is wrong?

Not at all.

Do you think that charging for already-written scripts is wrong?

Circumstantial, but yes. Writing a KoLmafia script with the intention on charging people for it, I think is wrong. If you are writing a script with the intention of claiming a bounty for it then I think that's fine.

Do you think that one person charging for an already-written script encourages others to charge similarly?

Definitely.

Do you think that one person charging for a script encourages others to steal it and redistribute it, charging for the redistribution?

I think it encourages some people to, yes.

Also, have you read the discussion thread where dj lays out his reasons for charging? Have you read the first post of the ascend.ash thread, or the first post of the farm.ash thread? I get the feeling you're arguing on an ideals level rather than one which is familiar with the context of this particular instance. (I could be wrong, though.) And that's okay. If you have issues with charging for scripts, though, maybe this thread is not the right place; it's more concerned with this instance of theft than the big question of charging.

I don't think I have read those threads, but I do remember the original thread where dj_d asked about charging for his script. At the time I kept quiet, knowing that it was a can of worms, but I probably should've spoken up there and then. I believe that it's instances like these (where someone "resells" a script) that could have been avoided had the script not been sold in the first place.

 

[Grotfang]

Just to say a big thanks to everyone so far - it's lovely having a discussion that is polite and relevant, as well as clear on where people stand. Certainly I am beginning to understand better why people are objecting to scripts being charged for (although I still don't agree ).

As for whether this is the right thread for a general principle discussion, well... why not? Most people will have seen this thread, I would wager, so I don't think it does much harm. If anyone else feels differently - please shout. Maybe a moderator could split them?

I believe that it's instances like these (where someone "resells" a script) that could have been avoided had the script not been sold in the first place.

I think this is pretty much a truism - people probably won't pay for something when they can get the original for free.

Writing a KoLmafia script with the intention on charging people for it, I think is wrong.

You see, this is interesting. I disagree with you, but I can see where you are coming from. But here's the thing - what if the script would not be produced or published if it wasn't paid for? People need different incentives in order to produce work, and if they go into a project with an expectation of outcome, is it fair to bar them from getting that outcome? If they go into the work knowing that it won't benefit them beyond satisfaction, then great - but what about the people that don't?

Removing the capacity for people to charge reduces the number of people who will produce good work for the community. If they charge, then people have to decide for themselves whether they want the code, but at least it doesn't actively harm anyone. Some benefit while the majority notice no difference. The only tangible difference between not having the code because it isn't there, and not having it because it isn't there at a price you are willing to pay is that in one no-one can get it, and in the other only people who value it at that price can get it.

In short, allowing people to charge produces a benefit to some that wouldn't be there otherwise. I don't believe banning charging for code would increase the number of scripts available (currently only one charges anyways) and consumers have no inherent "right" to the code.

I look forward to hearing some analysis on why you feel writing code with the intention of charging is wrong. What do you feel are the real downsides to it?

 

[holatuwol]

I fail to see see how offering a pre-made, one-script-fits-all for the low, low price of just one Mr. Accessory encourages people to do more of the leg-work for themselves.

Hm, you probably need to take a step back. If I were to go by the statement of "encourage leg-work" alone, it's very difficult to see how offering scripts at the low, low price of FREE encourages people to do more leg-work for themselves. But that's what the script repository exists to allow script writers to do. Clearly I'm not trying to deny the script repository's existence?

So why are there guidelines involving the purchasing of scripts? To discourage posts that say, "I need this super-complex script, and I'll pay you 100k for it. Bump. Still looking for someone to write this script!" Thus, the guidelines state that the minimum price you are allowed to suggest as payment is 1-10 Mr. Accessories per hour it'd take to write and test it.

Who is to say that he shouldn't be reimbursed for his time?

The thread containing the download for dj_d's script states very clearly, "Please do not share the password or the included files." As such, it's in very bad taste to redistribute dj_d's script at all, even if you do not charge a dime for it.

 

[dj_d]

I appreciate everyone's conversation on this, including those who disagree. Aqua, your commentary about how ascend.ash brought you in to scripting made my day.

I've nearly posted comments here several times, but I don't think I have the objective distance to contribute much. I will share a few facts, though:

• Any major contributing scripters or kolmafia contributors (by my own totally subjective definition) get the script for free, with my thanks. The Mr. A is for people who enjoy the benefits but do not want to contribute to the community.
• I definitely would have written ascend.ash without getting compensated for it (in fact, I wrote it for my own use before I decided how I was going to distribute it).
• I probably would not have released it publicly, though, and definitely would not support it actively.
• From a coding perspective, all the "hard stuff" in ascend.ash is available freely (notably eatdrink.ash). ascend.ash itself was just a year's worth of drudgery, repeatedly automating trivialities. The only exception is farm.ash, which I limited for different reasons.
• Any scripter who is interested in how part of ascend.ash works gets the relevant code PMed to them (e.g. I've mailed the pirate code to folks who wanted to see how it was done). I want to promote scripting, not hide secrets.
• I had a lot of reasons for charging for it; getting richer ingame was pretty low on the list (I've been playing since about six months after the game was created, so I have most of what I want already). Top of my list was to motivate people to participate in the community and thank those who already do; it makes me really happy to see that work. Others were driving KOL donations, some hesitancy about fully unleashing an ascend script to everyone in the world, and curiosity about what would happen.
• Purchasers are in the dozens, not the thousands.

 

[Catch-22]

I look forward to hearing some analysis on why you feel writing code with the intention of charging is wrong. What do you feel are the real downsides to it?

I only consider it wrong within the context of KoLmafia. The primary reason being, I don't think that KoLmafia should be turned into something people can cash in on.

I consider dj_d to be a fairly responsible scripter, he contributes a lot to the community free of charge. I do, however, see that this has the potential to encourage other, perhaps less community oriented folk, to capitalize upon KoLmafia and make some (virtual?) cash. Other people wanting a slice of the Mr. Accessory pie, so to speak.

Those people could garner the notion of "Why should I give this back to the community, when I can charge them for it instead?"

dj_d, I never actually thought about it in the way that your script could be encouraging people to donate to Jick & Co.