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Thread: Allegations of misconduct

  1. #1
    Developer fronobulax's Avatar
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    Default Allegations of misconduct

    sl_ascend is no longer being supported by the authors/contributors because of allegations made against asymmetric employees.

    The report of that is at https://kolmafia.us/showthread.php?2...l=1#post154198

    Details of the allegations can be found at links at https://github.com/soolar/sl_ascend#notice

    General Discussion thread here.

    I personally am not sure how to respond - but since one response is to stop supporting KoL I figure the community might have some opinions and discussion. I think this is a better place for that.
    Last edited by fronobulax; 09-08-2019 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Added GD link
    Well, thank you.
    Originally Posted by Veracity View Post

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    Developer Veracity's Avatar
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    I felt physically ill after reading all about this.

    I canceled my subscription, for now. I'm waiting to see some official response before deciding what my permanent response will be.

    KoLmafia is my hobby, and I have a chance to do Java (and now Javascript) things that I don't do at work - and ASH is my baby. I have a couple of things I want to do to improve scripting of Kingdom Of Exploathing, which I will do, for the benefit of people who may want to continue scripting it, regardless of this situation, but I expect I'll sit back and watch and wait, as mentioned above, before deciding on anything else.

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    I think it is important to remember that good people can do bad things, and bad people can do good things, and everyone makes mistakes. Some of those mistakes deserve prison, and some do not, but they are still mistakes.

    I feel like people who equate KoL with the mistakes of one of the developers are being a bit unreasonable. Honestly, I feel it is unreasonable to write a person off as evil because they did something evil.

    As it stands, I'm not angry: just disappointed. I reserve my anger for people who don't resolve to do better. Sure, Jick only came clean after being publicly confronted about it, but he still could have denied it. He didn't, and I think that is worth considering. I can't think of anything better they could do as of now, shitty as it may be.

    In case you are wondering, I try to have this outlook about anyone who did something horrible. I'd give a similar spiel if they secretly murdered someone, prison sentences aside.

    After all, everyone else has excoriated them already. I don't have anything to add in that regard.

  4. #4
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    I will say that Asymmetric should really use something more formal than Jick's personal Twitter account to respond to this, if only to demonstrate an understanding of how serious this is.

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    As an outsider to this forum and an avid user of Mafia, the thought of losing all the good work that goes into Mafia concerns me. I would like to ask though, what would it take from TPTB to reassure folks here to continue?

    Thanks,

    shks

  6. #6
    Developer fronobulax's Avatar
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    As an outsider to this forum and an avid user of Mafia, the thought of losing all the good work that goes into Mafia concerns me. I would like to ask though, what would it take from TPTB to reassure folks here to continue?

    Thanks,

    shks
    Originally Posted by shkspr View Post

    I've been thinking about this. The artist and the art are not the same. Composer Richard Wagner expressed numerous anti-Semitic opinions and his music was loved by the Nazis yet his music has merit and is performed today. So I want a solution that acknowledges Jick's transgressions but does not "harm" the game or my continued enjoyment of it.

    So I think a very public - on KoL's main page, on Assymetric's site and on Steam in the West of Loathing notices area - acknowledging the truth of the accusations, regret at they way they were handled and public shunning of the rapist would address my personal concerns about supporting the game.

    That said, my scripts are used by less than 300 people and I am the least prolific of the devs with commit access so my opinion is of less importance. I also acknowledge my privilege as a male in society and, in consequence, I will pay close attention to the opinions of others who have already earned my respect.

  7. #7

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    I want to start by saying that me being a KoL dev (playtester is really what it should be called, but that doesn't matter) has no impact on my response to this.

    I was planning on making a thread here to discuss this, if no one else got to it first. I thought it might make sense to wait until/if Jick has some response to these events.

    How much is a written response actually worth though? Especially from someone that makes a living by writing content for others, and therefore should be decent at putting together a message for people to digest. It's a very different type of writing, but still...

    For now, I have cancelled my subscription. I'm also holding off on adding anything more to mafia for now.

    (Unrelatedly, my less recent commits lately are because I had to reinstall my OS to continue getting any updates, and I haven't jumped through the hoops needed to have any working IDE set up, and non-trivial updates without an IDE usually don't seem worth the effort.)

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    Upon further consideration, I suppose I can see why Asymmetric has been reluctant to address this more formally. Itís the same reason that the Reddit post about this is marked NSFW: they are worried about the youngest members of this community seeing it and being traumatized.

    I canít immediately think of a good solution to that, as they canít put a NSFW tag on their website or a mass Kmail. And I can hardly expect them to do something I canít think of.

    Any ideas about what they should do?

  9. #9
    Developer fronobulax's Avatar
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    Given some of the testimony in the Kavanaugh, Epstein and Daniels "incidents" I am not sure not doing something to "protect the children" will protect them from anything. I can also craft an apology that does not get more graphic than the word "abuse". If I can do that, so can TPTB. I also recognize that I am not a stakeholder, directly, and a public statement that there was a pattern of abuse, a pattern of not "seeing" the abuse, an apology made to, and accepted by, the victim and an expressed desire not to let it happen again could be widely shared.

    I guess I want to feel reassured that my continued support for and participation in the game is not enabling any more abusive behaviour and that there is a sense of remorse about past behaviour.

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    Given some of the testimony in the Kavanaugh, Epstein and Daniels "incidents" I am not sure not doing something to "protect the children" will protect them from anything. I can also craft an apology that does not get more graphic than the word "abuse". If I can do that, so can TPTB. I also recognize that I am not a stakeholder, directly, and a public statement that there was a pattern of abuse, a pattern of not "seeing" the abuse, an apology made to, and accepted by, the victim and an expressed desire not to let it happen again could be widely shared.

    I guess I want to feel reassured that my continued support for and participation in the game is not enabling any more abusive behaviour and that there is a sense of remorse about past behaviour.
    Originally Posted by fronobulax View Post
    You're not wrong. Personally, I'm not sure whether this should be considered NSFW. I'm just thinking that might be TPTB's reason for hesitation.

    Ideally, this sort of thing would be covered in elementary school at the same time as things like "lying is bad", without any of the ridiculous stigma associated with even mentioning it. But that isn't the case in the US right now.

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