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Thread: Allegations of misconduct

  1. #11
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    I'm of the opinion that everyone will have to make deeply personal decisions as to how they want to respond.

    The biggest red flag for me was Phoenix's assertion that she still hasn't received any personal replies, even after Jick and HotStuff both tweeted publicly in response to her allegations. That coupled with the wording of the responses felt much more like a defensive PR move than genuine remorse.

    That said, I've disapproved with Jick's leadership (direction of the game, interactions with players, etc) for some time and as a result haven't donated in a number of years, so I'm definitely biased going into this.

  2. #12
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    The biggest red flag for me was Phoenix's assertion that she still hasn't received any personal replies, even after Jick and HotStuff both tweeted publicly in response to her allegations. That coupled with the wording of the responses felt much more like a defensive PR move than genuine remorse.
    Originally Posted by heeheehee View Post
    Why would they reply privately? Why would that be better? The entire issue boils down to keeping quiet about things they shouldn't have. If they were worried about PR so much, they wouldn't have confirmed the accusations at all. They had nothing to gain by doing that.

  3. #13
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    Why would they reply privately? Why would that be better? The entire issue boils down to keeping quiet about things they shouldn't have. If they were worried about PR so much, they wouldn't have confirmed the accusations at all. They had nothing to gain by doing that.
    Originally Posted by Saklad5 View Post
    ... because an apology should be to the person that it's directed toward, not just broadcast for the world to hear? There's nothing wrong with apologizing privately, followed by sending out a public statement, but neither of them did even that.

    Jick's response denied / weasel-worded his role and threw Armak under the bus. HS's was a retaliation. Neither was an apology.

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    ... because an apology should be to the person that it's directed toward, not just broadcast for the world to hear? There's nothing wrong with apologizing privately, followed by sending out a public statement, but neither of them did even that.

    Jick's response denied / weasel-worded his role and threw Armak under the bus. HS's was a retaliation. Neither was an apology.
    Originally Posted by heeheehee View Post
    It was a public accusation, and a public response. It was directed at them, though. It was objectively an apology, too, even if you think it wasn't sincere.

  5. #15
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    It was objectively an apology, too, even if you think it wasn't sincere.
    Originally Posted by Saklad5 View Post
    "I'm sorry you feel that way" is an example of an apology that would have been better left unsaid. Perhaps that relates to your definition of "objective apology"?

    There are two potential apologies that could/should be made. One of them is from the abuser and those who were oblivious to the abuse and directed to the victim. There is no reason why that needs to be public unless the victim so desires. The other apology should be from TPTB and directed to the KoL (and WoL) community. It could say "We made mistakes that hurt someone. We are sorry we did that, understand it was wrong and we won't do it again."
    Well, thank you.
    Originally Posted by Veracity View Post

  6. #16
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    The other apology should be from TPTB and directed to the KoL (and WoL) community. It could say "We made mistakes that hurt someone. We are sorry we did that, understand it was wrong and we won't do it again."
    Originally Posted by fronobulax View Post
    TPTB, meaning Asymmetric Games as a company, didn't do anything wrong, to my understanding.

  7. #17
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    TPTB, meaning Asymmetric Games as a company, didn't do anything wrong, to my understanding.
    Originally Posted by Saklad5 View Post
    The individuals listed first and second at Asymmetric's website are accused of abuse and accused of ignoring it. There was a period when they were 2/3 of the entire company and I am quite comfortable with equating them with TPTB. I suspect that if this distinction is important to you then we probably have different answers to the question "If the artist is corrupt, does that taint the art?"

    I will also note some of the abuse was alleged to occur in Asymmetric offices. There are definitely circumstances under which a corporation is held liable for the actions of its employees in corporate spaces. Asymmetric is almost certainly too small to be legally responsible but I am certainly willing to follow the precedent imposed on larger companies and assign some responsibility to the company.
    Well, thank you.
    Originally Posted by Veracity View Post

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    I distinguish between someone operating in a personal capacity and someone operating in a commercial capacity. If this happened under the auspices of Asymmetric, then they are at fault. Otherwise, I don't think they did anything wrong.

    And you're not asking for the company with 2/3 members accused to apologize. You are asking Asymmetric in the present to apologize. As for legal responsibility, I highly doubt size has anything to do with it.

  9. #19
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    I distinguish between someone operating in a personal capacity and someone operating in a commercial capacity. If this happened under the auspices of Asymmetric, then they are at fault. Otherwise, I don't think they did anything wrong.

    And you're not asking for the company with 2/3 members accused to apologize. You are asking Asymmetric in the present to apologize. As for legal responsibility, I highly doubt size has anything to do with it.
    Originally Posted by Saklad5 View Post
    It seems pretty clear to me that you have never worked for a corporation with over 20 employees, owned a company or had any management responsibilities that had a regulatory and compliance components. Given your previously demonstrated ability to rub me the wrong way, I see no benefit in us continuing this line of discussion.
    Well, thank you.
    Originally Posted by Veracity View Post

  10. #20
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    Ya know, I'm going to rant a bit.

    Some of the comments I have seen have been along the line of "Lets look at Wagner, a blatant anti-semite, and how people love and accept his work in spite of that."

    There is a lot we can learn from that specific example.

    I love Wagner's music. I hate Wagner's moral philosophy. I hate how Wagner's music - and the mythology which inspired it - was adopted by the Third Reich to celebrate and justify White Supremacy.

    And yet, I love Wagner's music.

    Wagner's personal moral philosophy is repugnant. So, why did anyone ever play it? Even during his time, Gustav Mahler - a Jew - conducted his music. Why? I cannot answer - but that was Mahler's choice.

    Given that people are bringing up Wagner, specifically, in reference to Jick and KoL, what does it mean?

    As a KoLmafia developer, I see myself in the role of a conductor of Wagner - I loathe the morality of the composer, but he produced beautiful music, and it is not up to me to deny his fans because the composer was loathsome. I present KoL to players of the game, via KoLmaia, in order to make it even more beautiful.

    The difference, to my eye, is that I am a conductor supporting an immoral composer while he still lives and produces new music and profits from my performance of his works.

    So did Mahler.

    I'm not going to screw my own community by disabling KoLmaia - even ignoring the four or more other devs with commit access who could reverse that vandalism.

    But do I want to be better than Mahler by refusing to aid somebody whose behavior is reprehensible, as opposed to giving him his royalties?

    Still pondering.
    Last edited by Veracity; 09-14-2019 at 07:44 AM.

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