Time for a new KoLmafia thread over on GD?

[Veracity]

There is a gigundo thread over in the KoL Games and Discussion forum that talks about KoLmafia. Probably, most people that have heard about the program heard about it there first. Many people use the program and whenever they have a question or bug to report, that's where they put it. Those that have heard about the daily builds and want them have to register here before they can download them, which gives them the ability to make posts here. Some of them do that, but surprisingly many of them continue to post on the KOL GD KoLmafia thread.

That thread was started by holatuwol when he announced his project. It is chock-full of historical info - the vast majority of which will never be read by anybody. The first post of the thread - the intro to the project - has been updated repeatedly over the years to update links and such. Since holatuwol started the thread, only he - or a forum mod - can update the first post.

A little while ago, St.Doodle sent me a proposed update to the first post. Among other things, it pointed more to this site as a place to get information, including suggesting SingingSally's guide instead of Aprocolypse's outdated guide, the FAQ, and the Wiki. I looked it over, thought it was basically good, and edited it some more myself. I then stored it on my website and asked shoptroll if he would plunk it in.

To my surprise, he told me that the content was fine, but suggested that, perhaps, I should start a new thread and we should retire the old thread. He copied Aelfrhian, CDMoyer, and AxiS_Shadowbane on this suggestion. ASS did not respond, but the other two did.

Aelfrhian said:

I'd be perfectly ok with starting a new thread. (I actually wanted to do that ages ago, but holatuwol talked me into making it so the first post could be edited* instead.)

* There's a time limit on the ability to edit OLD posts - and that thread has exceeded said limit twice to my recollection.
I'd REALLY prefer to change the limit back to something reasonable.

CDM said:

It would be ideal for the huge mafia thread to drop off the home page. The larger threads are expensive on the forum software. It's not a huge deal, but rebooting that thread wouldn't be terrible. especially as the new one could still point to the old one in the initial post.

I'm interested in what people think about this - especially from holatuwol, now that he's back from his vacation . If we do this, perhaps we could make more radical adjustments, too; I think that much of the current note reflects hola's initial vision - which still certainly lives on in the project - but which is not necessarily the whole picture these days.

(I also just read again - for the first time in years - hola's philosophy on Feature Requests:

I would love to be able to simplify KoLmafia a bit (following this philosophy whenever possible). If you've got any suggestions on how to make KoLmafia easier to use, even if it involves removing an existing feature, I'm open to hearing them. If you have ideas about improvements or enhancements, I'm open to those as well, but I abide by this philosophy in addition to the previous one (just a fair warning).

In summary: we want FEWER features, but every one should be quality and fit seamlessly into the program as a whole, and the initial response to every Feature Request should be "No", which will change only with wide support. This contrasts vividly with the attitude I've seen here that "every feature deserves a patch" - and some features COME with patches, of lesser or greater quality - which inevitably turns into repeated nagging about "why haven't you put in my patch yet"? I hate this.)

I'll follow up with the proposed (St.Doodle + my edits) first page - and invite suggestions on how to adjust it more radically to be used as the first note of a new thread, if we go that route, as the KoL forum admins would like us to do.

 

[Veracity]

Welcome to the KoLmafia thread. This thread is supposed to be where you post any questions, comments, or concerns you have related to the KoLmafia project so as to keep this forum uncluttered with general KoLmafia questions. However, while questions are welcomed, attitude is not, so make sure you think twice about what you're writing before posting. Think at least a third time before using words like "annoying" to describe the behavior of a freely provided program that has lots of hard, free work behind it that was most certainly not created to "annoy" you.

If you've got more advanced questions which you think require a thread or two to explain, consider taking your question to the KoLmafia User Script Repository forums, which can be found here. Or, if you think it might already be answered, check out either the FAQ or SinginSally's KoLmafia Guide (inspired by Aprocalypse's earlier guide).

Both of these are hosted on the KoLmafia Wiki, which also contains a great deal of additional information that you may find useful.

Can I have some quick links?

• Project Link: http://kolmafia.sourceforge.net/
• Report a Bug: http://kolmafia.us/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=24
• Daily Builds: http://builds.kolmafia.us/
• Official Builds: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=126572

Will KoLmafia run on my system?

It has been tested in Windows 98/2000/XP/Vista/7, and has been shown to work on several flavors of Linux and on Mac OS X 10.3+. Compatibility may exist for Mac OS X 10.2+, because KoLmafia's JAR releases are compiled using Java 1.4.1, but no confirmation has been provided for this. For some instructions on how to get started, check out Installation on the KoLmafia Wiki.

What features does KoLmafia provide?

• Auto-adventure. Yes, just like KoLmelion, KoL CLI, bigfreak's toolbelt, and Ohayou's mad-speed repeat action scriptlet, this desktop client supports adventuring at many of the most popular areas accessible through the browser. If new content arrives that is not yet supported by KoLmafia, please do not post to this thread asking for it to be added. Instead, post a "New Content" request on the forums.
• Coffee cup gameplay. Under the hood via the "relay browser" interface, KoLmafia aggregates some of the best browser script / helper ideas to present a slightly different click-reducing look to KoL that works in most major browsers, not just the one with the orange icon. Some general features include quick auto-restore links, quick use links, simplified combat handling, and tracking of most of KoL's "hidden" counters and timers.
• Inventory management. Wanted to keep an inventory window open while you're buying from the mall or adventuring to see your totals? Want to speed up multi-step recipes? Want to buy from lots of stores at once? KoLmafia presents a way to streamline that to let you focus on the cooler, less repetitive aspects of KoL.
• Not-So-Instant Messenger (NSIM) not to be confused with NetScape Instant Messenger (NSIM/AIM). Ever find yourself in far too many channels with some burning desire to have it all tabbed or in separate windows? Maybe your PMs, too? KoLmafia presents its own interface to KoL chat to help you manage all that, and it even logs all your chat sessions behind the scenes for later out of context quoting.

How can I help with the KoLmafia project?

I would love to be able to simplify KoLmafia a bit (following this philosophy whenever possible). If you've got any suggestions on how to make KoLmafia easier to use, even if it involves removing an existing feature, I'm open to hearing them. If you have ideas about improvements or enhancements, I'm open to those as well, but I abide by this philosophy in addition to the previous one (just a fair warning).

As a side note, there may be occasions where we miss your bug report amidst all the other thread posts. If the bug persists after a release, and you haven't seen any explanation of why the bug might not be fixed, feel free to bump the thread.

 

[StDoodle]

Just mentioning that I had many of the same thoughts when I wrote up my version of the "new" first post. This things tend to be difficult to judge; I ran into similar issues putting the zlib documentation on the wiki.

But truly, such is the nature of a project such as KoLmafia. While I mean no disrespect to hola -- and am in fact very grateful for all of his contributions to this game, not least of which involve mafia -- part of having an open source project is that you have to accept that your design philosophy may not forever remain the project's design philosophy. Thankfully, all evidence to date seems to show that all of the KoLmafia devs are as comfortable with this as can be reasonably hoped (given human nature and all).

Also, the state of KoL itself is vastly different than it was when KoLmafia was created. There really was no good reason to use the program back when the game began if you weren't intending to automate. However, there's so much pure information to track in KoL these days, that many people use it solely, or at least primarily, for that reason. As such, features relating to information tracking are, in my mind, much more desirable to accept and adopt.

One also has to realize that a lot of the major concerns over using KoLmafia no longer apply, or at least not to the same degree. KoL has changed the way a lot of limited-time content seems to work, such that "botting" the combat is no where near as bad (from a server hits / lag-inducing etc. standpoint) as it was, say, several Crimbos ago. This topic has actually been discussed in some depth for the past two Crimbos, re: "does automating Crimbo with KoLmafia help or hurt the lag situation?"

As far as creating a new thread goes, I'm all for that idea. Even if there weren't the technical issues mentioned, it would be nice if searching for relevant info in that thread were more likely to give something meaningful in the current incarnation of the program (I've ran into this a couple of times, actually). A link to the old thread would be a very good idea, IMO, but beyond that I think the current devs and community should work on the new intro and we should move forward from there. (With voting weighted towards the devs' opinions, of course. )

Also! (regarding the post & your edits). Yup, I took out the list of links, I do believe. The big one that needs to be there is the Official Builds... oops. I would suggest auto-trimming those links, as I'm not a fan of how the various forum software does so. Perhaps the official build link could be done as so:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=126572

Edit: Argh, nevermind: even explicitly selecting the text and hitting "disable link" seems to be ignored. So probably too much of a PITA to bother with.

 

[Theraze]

(I also just read again - for the first time in years - hola's philosophy on Feature Requests:In summary: we want FEWER features, but every one should be quality and fit seamlessly into the program as a whole, and the initial response to every Feature Request should be "No", which will change only with wide support. This contrasts vividly with the attitude I've seen here that "every feature deserves a patch" - and some features COME with patches, of lesser or greater quality - which inevitably turns into repeated nagging about "why haven't you put in my patch yet"? I hate this.)

I think part of the question around this is, what IS simpler? Are we talking about code, implementation, or end user experience? Each has their own arguments for why it should be the main one, but I'm going to guess that this means end user experience... Taking this into account, in one sense, the confirm boxes on adventuring (screwdriver and enchanted bean) is less simple... it's another box that comes up that you have to choose an option. In another sense, it's more simple, because it reduces the chance that someone will be bemused by what's happening and why they're spending adventures.

I'll try to show with two of my patches (that do fall into the "needs approval" category) that I believe they make mafia simpler for the end user... 5 turns of Inigo counted as -1 crafting adventure, and scaling monsters. Both of these, in my opinion, make it simpler for a newbie to use the system.
Inigo means that mafia properly is aware that yes, you can make item even with 0 adventures remaining, as long as you have enough Inigo for what you're doing. Mafia doesn't give them the incorrect information saying they're unable to craft, and the "new" bug posts regarding this would hopefully cease.
Scaling monsters means that newbies don't rush off into battle blindly and unaware that feast/booze/ratsworth are actually stronger than the 0 or 1 displayed... they do have stats, and your stats matter in regards to theirs. Accurate information means that newbies can understand easier what their battle plans should be.

 

[T_E]

I'm posting to provide the opinion of an end user of no particular importance, basically. I do not contribute to the project but I do attempt to provide answers/guidance to others in chat when a Mafia question comes up (honestly, most of the time that answer starts with a search on these forums). I use these forums daily to check out new features and I post when I succeed in stumbling into a self-induced roadblock with the program.
I think a new GD thread is an excellent idea. What you have written is superb. The only addition I suggest is adding additional quick links to singingsally's guide and to this forum (after rereading your post it appears links to these are indeed included, but within your text rather than under the quicklinks, so this is probably sufficient- I missed them on first read due to the lack of text color change).
Thank you, Veracity, for all you do. I hope you know that your efforts are appreciated by many- especially those like myself who use Mafia every KoL login and cannot imagine continuing the game without it.

 

[StDoodle]

The only addition I suggest is adding additional quick links to singingsally's guide and to this forum.

Links are there, but before the "quick links" part. I would suggest that we should probably add some bolding to the links, as about 90% of the forum software out there -- including here and GD -- has default colors that make links very difficult to distinguish.

 

[matt.chugg]

is there any value to adding a link to the svn rss feed? or is that outside of the intended scope of this discussion

 

[Theraze]

If the SVN gets linked, it should be noted that it relates to daily builds, not so much related to released ones. Well, not unless you're really patient.

 

[slyz]

Links are there, but before the "quick links" part.

Adding the forum and the wiki in the quick links would be great. Apart from that, everything looks good.

Perhaps the second post in the thread should explain why there is a new KoLMafia thread, and link to the old one?

 

[matt.chugg]

perhaps just a link next to the daily builds one called latest changes? or perhaps its all moot becuase the daily builds page has a mini feed on it anyway!

 

[holatuwol]

I'm interested in what people think about this - especially from holatuwol, now that he's back from his vacation.

Well, we could have discussed this in the GD thread (unlike code changes that would only affect people downloading daily builds, this discussion is actually very relevant in that thread), but the discussion opened here instead where it has no actual impact.

To me, this indicates that the GD thread is no longer treated as a place for KoLmafia-related discussion, but rather it's treated as a legacy location for people who do not want to create yet another forum account. Given that, the six year old thread with 20,600 posts has likely outlived its purpose of being a historical info location and can safely be retired and a new one can be put in its place.

Additionally, in case it's relevant, I cannot edit the first post anymore (I don't think Aelf ever wants to allow for posts needing an edit over six years after being started), so whatever we decide, we could preemptively ask Aelf to reset the max edit age back to something sane as the edit age no longer matters.

That being said, I haven't started playing KoL again yet (I just lurk in /games when I'm not playing Dragon Quest IX), so I'm just doing code clean-up so I understand what's happened with KoLmafia over the years. So I won't actively be watching any threads (either here or on GD), so even if I were against the change (which I'm not), my opinion shouldn't count for too much. ^_~

 

[fronobulax]

I am in favor of a new thread on the GD forum. I never really understood the reasons for not having one and almost believed the slander that hola wanted to be the OP for the longest forum thread. That raises a question - what are the criteria for starting a new thread in the future? When the dev forum was more active each release triggered a new thread that accumulated discussion about that version. However that organization did make it difficult to find something that had not been changed or otherwise addressed with the new version.

Given the discussion that the philosophy statement has started, I would like to observe that a great many feature requests seem to boil down to - "I want to do things my way and want mafia to help". Often "my way" concerns optimizations that apply to a small niche of players or are only optimal for the requester. We have been accommodating many of these, IMO, because with settings and scripts, doing so does not harm mainstream users or players. Nevertheless on a practical basis we have put the users ahead of any philosophy that would reduce features. I'm not sure that genie will go back into the bottle.

On the proposed post, I would like to consider the section on Bug Reports. On a practical basis what "we" - the folks who try and make sense out of bug reports in order to fix the ones that need fixing - actually do is tell the reporter to replicate the behavior with the latest daily build. I'd say 75% of the bug reports on the GD forum are fixed in the dailies. So I would rewrite it to encourage people to replicate the problem with the latest daily build and then post the report here.

A possible rewording:

As a side note, we would prefer that you post bug reports at KoLmafia.us and only after you have replicated the behavior using a recent Daily Build. If you do post one here there may be occasions where we miss your bug report amidst all the other thread posts.

I also note that folks get confused by the build types and might consider adding the following:

Official Builds are released periodically, available from SourceForge and are believed to be stable. Daily Builds are created daily, available at KoLmafia.us and are also generally stable. As the Official Build ages, bug reports against it often turn out to be things that have been fixed and are available in Daily Builds after a certain date. Daily builds are at their least stable when KoL introduces new content or changes to the interface.

 

[StDoodle]

I agree completely with fronobulax's thoughts on explaining daily builds and pre-bug report notes, seems like it would cut out a great deal. Possibly should even add a "please check existing feature requests before making one," as a lot of those tend to be dupes as well. Perhaps we should also mention that here is the place for those.

 

[Veracity]

Well, we could have discussed this in the GD thread (unlike code changes that would only affect people downloading daily builds, this discussion is actually very relevant in that thread), but the discussion opened here instead where it has no actual impact.

To me, this indicates that the GD thread is no longer treated as a place for KoLmafia-related discussion, but rather it's treated as a legacy location for people who do not want to create yet another forum account.

It is true that, to me, this forum has taken over the function of the GD thread. It started out as a place for people to discuss scripting and it is still that. The sophistication of the scripts that people are now producing boggles my mind. It's pretty rare, these days, that people want a new ASH feature, and it's pretty rare that people find an ASH bug. ASH is mature, and people are using it to do amazing things. I'd wager that most of the threads here - outside of the bug reports - still deal with scripting.

It is precisely the bug report forum that has caused this shift in attention for me. A lot of the posts on the GD thread are from new users asking how to do such-and-such. I usually let my minions ... uh, loyal and experienced KoLmafia users, most of whose names are familiar here in this forum ... answer those. Occasionally there is a bug report or a feature request. But, having it buried in the middle of a general thread makes it very difficult to look at all the discussion pertaining to a particular bug or issue over, potentially, many pages. It is just SO much more convenient when people file a bug report or feature request here. Heck, when I talk to my clannies in chat and they have a suggestion or a bug, I suggest that they open a Bug report or Feature Request here. Partly, that is to allow other devs to tackle it, rather than having it on my own personal "to do" list (wishful thinking, I know), but mostly it is to attract discussion and get it into the database so it doesn't just get lost. Not that we address all reports even in this forum; there are currently over 200 open Bugs and over 200 open Feature Requests.

Back in the first 4 or 5 years of the project, you used to go through that GD thread and collect all the bug reports and feature requests and write a mega-reply addressing each of them every time you spun a new release. That was a lot of work and I admire your dedication! But my preferred practice these days is to respond to each Bug Report or Feature Request here as it is addressed and simply point to the "abbreviated revision notes" as the change log for the release, so to speak.

This means that I rarely respond in the GD thread any more. When I see a bug that attracts my eye, I will sometimes fix it and mention that I did so, even with no Bug Report here. But I do not have time to go back and look however many pages back to see what has been suggested or reported and remains unaddressed.

I envision the GD thread as a friendly place for the less experienced KoLmafia user to ask questions and get responses from more experienced users. I'd like to encourage users of all levels of experience to visit this forum and look at the FAQ and New User Guides and Wiki and such. I want to keep a presence in GD so that new KoL users will continue to see our thread on page one of GD and, if they decide it could be useful to them, try it out. I'd like ALL users - even new ones - to file bug reports here for real bugs - after, perhaps, discussing them on GD and verifying that they really are bugs.

But, to be honest, I don't really want some of the ... how to put it ... harder of thinking posters to post their questions here, only to ignore the advice of those who respond and perhaps even get belligerent when they don't get the answer they want, just as they do over on GD.

Therefore, I want the intro to be friendly and welcoming, to encourage questions and discussion, and to tell people exactly how to report bugs. The distinction between "Official Builds" and "Daily Builds", the request to try to reproduce bugs on a Daily Build before reporting it, and the request to post bugs here seems important.

I'd like a brief mention of how this was holatuwol's baby for many years and a pointer to the old thread to preserve the historical record. Even though I will probably be installing the new thread, there are already too many people who seem to think this is MY program.

And, perhaps it is time to modify holatuwol's first-person "new feature policy" since there is no single "I" who decides whether a feature gets implemented. The genie may, indeed, be out of the bottle. And I do not share holatuwol's dislike for making things optional via preference - except insofar as it becomes confusing for a new user to decide what is important and what is even harmful to their particular play style.

Given that, the six year old thread with 20,600 posts has likely outlived its purpose of being a historical info location and can safely be retired and a new one can be put in its place.

I think so too. I/we all need to decide what to put in it.

Additionally, in case it's relevant, I cannot edit the first post anymore (I don't think Aelf ever wants to allow for posts needing an edit over six years after being started), so whatever we decide, we could preemptively ask Aelf to reset the max edit age back to something sane as the edit age no longer matters.

I'm sure she'd appreciate that. Thanks.

That being said, I haven't started playing KoL again yet (I just lurk in /games when I'm not playing Dragon Quest IX), so I'm just doing code clean-up so I understand what's happened with KoLmafia over the years. So I won't actively be watching any threads (either here or on GD), so even if I were against the change (which I'm not), my opinion shouldn't count for too much. ^_~

I and we-all owe you so much for creating this program originally that your opinion will always count.

 

[lostcalpolydude]

I'm pretty sure that reports of bugs that have since been fixed in daily builds will always exist, especially with major builds not coming out more than once per month. The only way to change that would be more frequent major builds (drawbacks include more developer work and more user nag messages) and killing the idea of major builds completely (forcing people to get daily builds whenever it occurs to them, which probably means they will update before making a post). I guess those might not help much with people posting about old builds anyway.

 

[Veracity]

And then there are the users who simply refuse to use daily builds because they are not "official" and are therefore obviously inferior - or less trustworthy. As a sourceforge hosted project, I think we need to have occasional official releases on sourceforge.

 

[StDoodle]

And then there are the users who simply refuse to use daily builds because they are not "official" and are therefore obviously inferior - or less trustworthy. As a sourceforge hosted project, I think we need to have occasional official releases on sourceforge.

Ok, there's a lot of commenting on your previous post I want to get to, but this one needs immediate attention. Sometimes, they really are less trustworthy. Experimental new features often need a further revision or two to shake out all of the bugs. I'm not trying to bash how the revision process is handled; this seems like a necessary truth once a project reaches a certain level of complexity. But it does mean that there's some truth to the user's wariness of daily builds.

Those of us who are regulars here can usually tell pretty quickly when a daily build is "safe" to use during any kind of "serious" run, but those who don't make sure to get the "No new posts" page on a regular basis probably can't.

There's been a great deal of shift in the KoLmafia user-base since NS13 hit, and I know a lot of KoLmafia users who consider themselves "serious" players, or who are at least aspiring to be such. It's completely understandable that said people would want to make sure they're using a relatively "stable" version of KoLmafia.

Now, a big issue is that it's often been a long time between "major" revisions as of late, and there have always been numerous "stable" daily builds in between each one. My suggestion is to be more open to putting "minor" (but non-daily) revisions on sourceforge more often. Perhaps the "upgrade nag" should be modified to only fire once per minor, and continually for major (I dunno, it may already behave that way on major: I rarely encounter it).

The funny thing is that the experimental features that occasionally cause issues are very few and far between; even a speed-ascender would have no issues with something like 80% of the daily builds. But as anyone who reads GD knows, anything that mucks up a speed run is SRS BIZNS.

 

[Veracity]

By "less trustworthy" I meant "I think I can trust the developers of this program to not steal my password when I use a release they put on sourceforge, but what's with these user-supplied builds? Scary!"

 

[StDoodle]

I usually let my minions ... uh, loyal and experienced KoLmafia users, most of whose names are familiar here in this forum ... answer [simple questions].

I feel fairly safe speaking for most of us when I say that we're happy to do so (well, save the aforementioned requests where the user gets an attitude about the fact that no one seems to be jumping right into satisfying their every whim ). I for one don't feel like I would be all that useful contributing to the project's code directly. So whenever I can help out in another way -- be it adding info to the wiki, serving as the "front line" on GD, or helping to re-write a forum post -- I'm glad to do so. Plus, I have to do something to make up for some of the horribly worded posts and bad bug reports I've made.

Not that we address all reports even in this forum; there are currently over 200 open Bugs and over 200 open Feature Requests.

I don't know how the forum adminship is set up, but it might be nice if a couple more people could have at least limited power to change thread prefixes. At the very least, it isn't unheard of for a feature request to be taken back by the original submitter upon learning that there's already a fairly decent way to do what they're looking for. While I don't think non-devs should be marking any bugs as "Fixed," I think the "Rejected" for feature requests and sometimes even "Not a Bug" could be done by a few of the forum regulars. With any luck, this would cut down at least a little on the time devs spend doing "paperwork."

But my preferred practice these days is to respond to each Bug Report or Feature Request here as it is addressed and simply point to the "abbreviated revision notes" as the change log for the release, so to speak.

Seems to me like another of those necessary changes as a project matures and grows.

This means that I rarely respond in the GD thread any more. When I see a bug that attracts my eye, I will sometimes fix it and mention that I did so, even with no Bug Report here. But I do not have time to go back and look however many pages back to see what has been suggested or reported and remains unaddressed.

I think we (the regular, more familiar with KoLmafia users) should probably try to take a bit more initiative in making sure anything that sounds like it could indeed be a bug is cross-reported here. I think it'd probably be better if the devs left the GD thread alone, unless they found themselves with a great deal more free time than they're used to. (Actually, anyone with any faith left in humanity would probably be better off leaving all of GD alone, but that's another story...).

But, to be honest, I don't really want some of the ... how to put it ... harder of thinking posters to post their questions here, only to ignore the advice of those who respond and perhaps even get belligerent when they don't get the answer they want, just as they do over on GD.

Yeah, one of my most recent exchanges there comes to mind (and may well have been on yours when you posted this). Again, a bit more forum-modship here might be in order, so that such reports could be flagged and possibly deleted before you even saw them, at least some of the time.

...there are already too many people who seem to think this is MY program.

I actually had a conversation the other day about mafia where somebody responded to something I wrote with "who's hola?" Weird.

And, perhaps it is time to modify holatuwol's first-person "new feature policy" since there is no single "I" who decides whether a feature gets implemented. The genie may, indeed, be out of the bottle. And I do not share holatuwol's dislike for making things optional via preference - except insofar as it becomes confusing for a new user to decide what is important and what is even harmful to their particular play style.

KoLmafia is subject to change even more than most programs, simply because it's directly dependant on the structure of another "program" (KoL) so deeply. KoL has changed in so many ways since KoLmafia was created, that it would be a bit silly to expect KoLmafia not to have changed, I think. As I've mentioned previously, a lot of people use it for information and little else. I honestly can't understand how someone could try to play KoL "well" without KoLmafia, or something similar.

I and we-all owe you so much for creating this program originally that your opinion will always count.

Indeed! I honestly wouldn't play KoL if it wasn't for mafia, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[StDoodle]

By "less trustworthy" I meant "I think I can trust the developers of this program to not steal my password when I use a release they put on sourceforge, but what's with these user-supplied builds? Scary!"

Ah. That thought has honestly never crossed my mind.

But I suspect you may be misinterpreting some of the "less trustworthy" sentiment as that, when it's really what I mentioned. Of course, I talk almost exclusively with HCN / O folks, so my data is a bit skewed.