Feature - Rejected Add wiki link to class in relay browser

[IronTetsubo]

Another feature suggest by a friend that I thought would be nifty and whipped up - changing the class listed in the character pane in the relay browser to add a link to the appropriate wiki page for the class. Patch is against r10887, builds/runs/works. Minor, but has been helpful for me as I play to have a quick way to refer to class info.

 

[Grotfang]

Why should this be a native feature instead of something to be left for a relay override script?

 

[IronTetsubo]

Because it's useful to have out of the box? I suspect that's not a very useful response, though, as I don't know what your philosophy is around what should be in the code vs. what should be a relay override script. Forgive me, I'm very new to kolmafia development, so if there's a better/preferred way to do this, I'm happy to take another stab at it. I figured best way to have a meaningful conversation about it is to post some code.

 

[fronobulax]

It is hard to articulate the inclusion philosophy. Minimizing server hits on KoL and (to a lesser extent) other sites seems to be a constant. Community support and interest for the feature are important. The presence, or absence, of alternatives is a factor. If it makes life easier or more interesting for the existing devs then it is likely to become a feature.

In this particular case, I have to ask Why? What kind of play style constantly refers to basic class information on the wiki? Is your friend a KoL noob or an experienced player? Can you justify the inclusion by comparison to the option to click on an item and see the wiki page? So the best conversation to have would be how this makes "things" "better" for appropriate definitions of "things" and "better". Just because something can be done does not mean it should be. Let's make a case.

 

[Veracity]

I know that I would never use this feature. I don't even use Wiki links for items; if I am unclear about what an item does, I look at modifiers.txt.

 

[lostcalpolydude]

My first thought was that this isn't worth adding. There's always the option to type "wiki [classname]" in the CLI even if no script is used.

 

[Grotfang]

Forgive me, I'm very new to kolmafia development, so if there's a better/preferred way to do this, I'm happy to take another stab at it. I figured best way to have a meaningful conversation about it is to post some code.

There's nothing to forgive. My question wasn't intended to be mean or stifle you. All I was curious about is what the benefits of this would be compared to the status quo, which is that a relay script can have the same effect.

To contribute more meaningfully to the discussion, my inclination is that it should be obvious where links will take you, and linkifying your class is not obvious. If I saw a class name linkified, I would assume it was taking me to my guild, not to a page on the wiki that I rarely use.

 

[IronTetsubo]

I will try to quick-hit here in the hopes I'm addressing everyone - if not, my apologies.

- re why? I wouldn't see this as something players would use constantly, but once a session or so I see a need to refer back to class information. Moreso with axecore as it's newer, but in general it's been useful to get a general link back to the class-specific information (i.e., what does that class skill do again? What are the class-specific bonuses again?). I'm certainly not suggesting this is a huge difference - but having a "one-click" option has been much nicer than having to click over to the wiki and type in "disco bandit" or the like. This isn't about being a newbie, per se - it's about having easy reference back to the class info for your particular class.

- re would just go look at the source, well sure - I suspect, Veracity, you are not the most typical of users. I hope, though, that there is some value here for others and close to no downside for you (beyond the burden of additional code).

- re option to type in the cli - yup, or a variety of other ways. this was enough easier that I thought it worth it, to my original point - much faster to click once than to click back to kolmafia, switch to the cli, then type in "wiki seal clubber" or the like. My particular play style is 70-80% relay browser, so continuing to "soup up" the web interface is great (for me).

- re: it's not obvious, that's funny - I had the exact opposite reaction (hence the patch). For me, there's nothing more obvious for the class name then to have it link to more info about the class - but, I see your point, that being then an easier way to go direct to the guild. Shrug - I can happily change the approach accordingly if that makes more sense for everyone.

Ultimately, the key here seems to be if anyone other than me see utility in this - so, fellow forum members, weigh in! Thumbs up or thumbs down - does the patch live or die!

 

[fronobulax]

My particular play style is 70-80% relay browser, so continuing to "soup up" the web interface is great (for me).

That may be the best single argument for making it a relay override. ;-)

 

[Winterbay]

If you don't use chat you can also add the CLI to the left pane instead and have easy access to CLI-commands during relay browser action.

 

[roippi]

Seems unintuitive to me as well. I'd expect clicking it to take me somewhere in-game, if anywhere.

 

[Bale]

I'd like to add my voice that this sounds like a reason to make a relay override script, not a mafia feature. And I would not use that relay script.

 

[IronTetsubo]

heh. well, fair enough - the clear consensus is "no thanks". Someone should change this to Feature - won't implement, then... I don't think I can?

 

[bordemstirs]

If you use Firefox (and maybe Chrome? not sure about how exactly that thing that is an Address Bar with a pretentious name really works) you can add the kolwiki to the Search Bar (the thing just right of the Address Bar) and save yourself some time there. Also, instead of typing out the full name, just use the abbreviations. Depending on your internet speed you may also find the option to Show Suggestions useful for longer named/difficult to spell items.
There are hundreds of things you can do to minimize your effort, and I just don't see a link to the wiki on something as static as class info being all that useful to be included for everyone to see.

 

[xKiv]

Even better, you can add google search with the term thekolwiki added.
Comes up faster, with results that are more relevant, and is tolerant of typos, tolerant of incorrect case and has cached content in case koldfront is down.

 

[biggles]

So, well, I'm the "noob" who requested it. I look up things in the wiki all the time, can't be bothered to memorize trivia (and yes, the *entire game* is trivia - that's part of it's charm). If that makes me a noob, there you go. In my particular instance, I was looking for skills to perm after I flipped boris post ascension - I guess if you have them all memorized, the link seems kinda useless.

As a "noob" - I don't even know what a "relay override script" is. Counting on people who are looking for information to know about obscure features (again - never *heard* of it until now, I don't hack kolmafia, I just play the game) is probably sub-optimal. (Teach a man to fish - can someone point me to a URL that talks about them, and how to use them? Best I can find googling is a link to forum discussions, and of course without knowing what they're called, googling is a tall order). Assuming there's a default script - perhaps this should be added?

I have a friend (not irontetsubo, another one) - he constantly makes decisions for others based on how he sees it, and I constantly have to remind him that he's not the typical end-user. He assumes - incorrectly - that everyone else knows what he does, and he knows a lot, and so he often chooses the *worst* thing to do... I wonder how many kolmafia users make "relay override scripts" - 10%? 20%? And how many comment about kolmafia hacking and features. I suspect you're all in the same boat - you are substantially dissimilar to the typical kolmafia end-user. You likely know the game better, and kolmafia better, than the vast majority of it's users - I wouldn't assume anything is obvious. (indeed - my chief complaint about kolmafia is the plethora of 'hidden features' - half of my suggestions are already there, somewhere, but it's not clear how to use them)

Just seems to me that it might be nice if dead text that says "pastamancer" was clickable to get more info. I feel that way about most text, frankly.

I guess the real question is - who is the intended audience for kolmafia? Call me odd, but I kinda thought it was there to de-obfuscate (and automate) a game that's kinda obfuscated, on purpose. I don't see how dead text is better than non-dead, for a n00b for for a "UB3r 31337 kOlM4f1A HaX0R".

Sorry for the Rant. EXCELSIOR!

 

[roippi]

Well, let's see. And I'm not trying to be overly harsh here, you are indeed more the prototypical user than I.

1) There is a whole subforum called "Relay Override Scripts". Its heading is, appropriately, "Scripts intended to override text displayed in the relay browser." These are not a terribly obscure thing.
2) There is a wiki link up top. A couple of clicks from the main page will get you to the page on relay override scripts.
3) Yes, there are a lot of hidden configuration options, but that's what the wiki and these forums are for.

Moreover, we get asked all the time to "add a checkbox" for some feature. It is perceived as the option that makes all parties happy. In reality, we say "no" to so many feature requests precisely because it results in the proliferation of hidden options and feature bloat that is vastly overwhelming to new users. We start by saying no to feature requests, and if/when other people also make the same feature request, we reconsider. As much as a swiss army knife is nice, you don't reach for it for everyday cooking.

 

[biggles]

The subforum was what I found when I googled - but again, without knowing what a "relay override script" is, or that it solves (perhaps?) this desire, how would you know to go there?

The same goes for the wiki (and thank you for providing the link!) - unless you know the name of what you want, it's kind of a chicken and the egg thing.

So - it's cool that that's maybe the right way to add it, but we're still in the boat that your typical user might find it handy when they say "Hey, I'm a pastamancer - what the heck was the next step in the epic legendary weapon quest" to have a link that points them there, and I don't see a better place than that "pastamancer" text in the corner of the relay browser. I can click on my name for info on me - it seems reasonable to be able to click on the class to see info on the class.

And expecting them to write an ash script for an interface that's turned off by default means "no, it's not gonna happen". (Out of curiosity - why off by default? This seems a good hook - I'd imagine you'd have it on and be implementing big whopping chunks of the relay browser stuff as relay scripts. Is there some gross performance hit or something?)

 

[lostcalpolydude]

So, well, I'm the "noob" who requested it. I look up things in the wiki all the time

In other words, you spend a lot of time on the wiki. So much so that you could probably leave the wiki open or set your browser up to quickly search stuff there maybe. To add on to what holatuwol said, I make use of keyword searches, so I just type "ko searchterm" in Firefox's address bar to search for it on the wiki.

It sounds like a link to this one page would be a drop in the bucket compared to your wiki use and wouldn't really save that much time. I can spout off most of the complicated game mechanics from memory, and I still use the wiki regularly.

I think it could make sense to have allowRelayOverrides default to true.

 

[Veracity]

I think it could make sense to have allowRelayOverrides default to true.

Agreed. The user already has to opt-in by actually installing a Relay Override file.