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Thread: Automated Softcore Ascension

  1. #1
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    Default Automated Softcore Ascension

    It may not be obvious unless you're following the thread, but I removed my ascension script files from this thread because it enables the implementation of a fully automated softcore ascension, which the admins of this board may not want published. The only reason I posted here is to re-open the discussion on the ethical nature such a script. I personally do not have any issue with it, but I know it has been something Holatuwol has been opposed to for some time. Now that a fully scripted run is possible with the recent HTML ASH functions I think it would be appropriate to discuss this issue.
    words words words

  2. #2

    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    I'm not sure how I feal about this.... if posted I know I would use it on a Multi, but not on my main... and *I think* farming the peak is better at making meat then Ascending...

    I'm not sure...
    ???

    let me sit and ponder this for awhile... ???

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    My main goal is to create an alternative interface where KoL retains the "a game I can play and laugh at over breakfast" feel that's made it attractive to me in the first place. I recognize that just as KoLmafia's UI can be used to make KoL a more relaxing game, full-blown softcore/hardcore ascension scripts can, if used strictly during days of filler, serve the same purpose.

    However, the way I see it, their primary function for anyone other than the script writer is to serve as a means through which one can completely transform KoL into Progress Quest. In my own opinion, Progress Quest isn't any fun, and I'd never enjoy playing a game like Progress Quest (at least, I don't think I would ... as I've never played, I can't say for sure).

    If you were to ask me, "Do you like the idea of a full-blown softcore/hardcore ascension script?" I would still say, "Not at all." However, while I am against the idea behind ascension scripts, I won't object to anyone writing them and publishing them if existing functionality allows for it.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    I think that it's a line that everyone has to draw for themselves. I believe that it would be rational to decide that you're not comfortable publishing a full ascension bot, just like it would be rational to decide that you did want to provide that product for people.

    Me, I love the opportunities that both KoL and KoLmafia provides as a sandbox for somewhat complex scripts that have tangible and ever-enhancable results. Honest to goodness, I think that ASH should be taught in schools as a first programming language. It's Logo for the twenty-first century: instead of drawing some lame squares and spirals, you're farming the peak and beating up the Boss Bat, which you can actually ese.

    So while I've essentially written win_game.ash, publishing it is the furthest thing from my mind. It was such a joy to write and to continue to improve that blurting it out seems like it would spoil the experience for someone who is working their way up the ladder themselves. So now my contributions are more along the lines of functions that other people might choose to incorporate into their scripts if they had the understanding and the resources to do so.

    I've said before and I'll say again that it would be neat to have a private group for people who have completed ascension bots to be able to discuss their work without fear of "spoilers". Sort of a Nuclear Club except for KoL. It just seems like a shame that Holatuwol didn't know until very recently how early he had allowed clan raiders in ASH: I wouldn't have minded telling him except that there really isn't anywhere where you know that there aren't any black hats around. Daychilde sensibly pointed out that it would be cumbersome to figure out who would be in such a group and who would decide who was in, and I agree, but it would be neat all the same.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    [quote author=Tirian link=topic=368.msg2022#msg2022 date=1156358116]Me, I love the opportunities that both KoL and KoLmafia provides as a sandbox for somewhat complex scripts that have tangible and ever-enhancable results. Honest to goodness, I think that ASH should be taught in schools as a first programming language. It's Logo for the twenty-first century: instead of drawing some lame squares and spirals, you're farming the peak and beating up the Boss Bat, which you can actually ese.[/quote] Oh so very much agreed. I've no programming experience, and being around during the development of ASH is amazing. I'm learning a lot about programming in general, and enjoying seeing tangible results from my burgeoning skill ;D

    [quote author=Tirian link=topic=368.msg2022#msg2022 date=1156358116]So while I've essentially written win_game.ash, publishing it is the furthest thing from my mind. It was such a joy to write and to continue to improve that blurting it out seems like it would spoil the experience for someone who is working their way up the ladder themselves. So now my contributions are more along the lines of functions that other people might choose to incorporate into their scripts if they had the understanding and the resources to do so.[/quote] And again, agreed. Figuring out how to write win_game.ash would be fun (not that I've done it, since most of my scripting is aimed at helping my clan rather than running through the game), but publishing it seems wrong for 2 reasons.

    1) As Tirian says, it could spoil the experience for someone working on their own script - though in this case it might also be used for inspiration / troubleshooting, which might reduce the feeling of accomplishment but also reduce the frustration!

    2) It means that someone with no understanding of the script, scripting process, or even of KoL itself could download Mafia, run the script and ascend as many times as they want, without ever actually *playing* the game. That seems..... so very, very wrong to me. I'm in full agreement with what em says on the first page of the FAQ on the wiki - "Make sure you understand the game without the bot before you use the bot."

    [quote author=Tirian link=topic=368.msg2022#msg2022 date=1156358116]............ there really isn't anywhere where you know that there aren't any black hats around. [/quote] /me decides which hat to wear today ;-)

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    [quote author=Tirian link=topic=368.msg2022#msg2022 date=1156358116]I've said before and I'll say again that it would be neat to have a private group for people who have completed ascension bots to be able to discuss their work without fear of "spoilers".[/quote]

    I think this is a great idea. Just add a new group to the forums like the wiki team.
    words words words

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    My thoughts... Just like mafia doesn't let you automate the lair on your first ascension (or at least it didn't a while ago when I started a multi) I don't see why anyone should be using an ascension script for the first few ascensions. The only (semi-legit) reason I could see would be for spades that wanted test multis and needed skills for them. Still, gathering data with the community seems preferable to every spade generating 100 test multis and using scripts to get them up to snuff.

    But yeah, I've got a winGameAS.ash, and frankly working on this script is what has kept me interested in the game recently. At the same time, it assumes about 40-50 skills and several items and familiars, and would be worthless to most anyone else. I took what I was doing manually and automated it, not perfectly but it does well enough. Some things even better, just because it never forgets to use the leaflet or get the pirate gear before level 9, etc.

    Anyway, if someone wants to release an ascension script that works well with no items, skills, or meat banked, that's fine. I'd like to see it, out of curiosity. And it'd be great to get the community looking at what could be improved. Hell, a great bot could illustrate what in the game is too easy to solve (formulaic, repetitive, whatever). Anyone who wants to use an ascension script, however, I'd encourage to find a play style manually, and then incorporate that into the script. After all, there can be no perfect ascension script as long as people have different goals.

    Oh, and hopefully people multi abusing by using such scripts would be even easier to spot, even if they could be worse abusers.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    Indeed a "WinGame.ash" script project had kept me busy for quite some time. (Although I am kind of slacking off, haven't updated it since 8.1 really...) But it is based around building from the bottom up (Eg. No skills and such) and is split into a heap of different little files, each for a certain task. (Since this allows for easy "adding features" rather then "making it work with" different characters.) With the new functions being added to ASH I might just have to get off my lazy butt and update my script xD but at the same time with these new functions I'm going to have to personally go explore some parts of KoL I have never personally used. (The quest log for example, I seriously never used it but now I have a "real" reason to at least check out the HTML it has >&gt
    Personally I probably won't release this script because I have the feeling that while people would like to have a look at it and look at any "crafty" code I use, I also have the feeling that scripts of this calibre are best kept private. (Although saying that I also would like to look at other peoples ascension scripts but I will generally end up writing my own functions rather then grabbing a pre-made from someone else.)

    The comment made by Tirian about ASH being the first programming language taught is effectively very true. I am self taught and ASH just makes a alot of sense to people that just look at a section of the code and they can follow it. (Well once they become familiar with the functions, but even then its not hard since the function names are generally self explanatory)

    And yes, after reading all that I still don't actually help with the discussion apart from repeating what has been already said >>. Joy.
    It's not like we hurt people or anything... Just steal from 'em... I'm not into hurting people, you know...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Automated Softcore Ascension

    I would honestly use the script for my multi/now clan buffbot to get skills. The whole automated game thing interests me, solely because of the impressive amount of coding behind it.

    Using that sort of script on my main account seems worthless. I could change my mind about my 5th straight HCO run though.

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