Modifier Maximizer

Veracity · Jul 21, 2009

Cyclops Eyedrops give you Item Drop +100. What does that give you towards maximizing Meat Drop?

lostcalpolydude · Jul 21, 2009

Veracity said:
Cyclops Eyedrops give you Item Drop +100. What does that give you towards maximizing Meat Drop?

Absolutely nothing, dj_d is just crazy.

jasonharper · Jul 21, 2009

dj_d said:
I'd love to make the tiebreakers directly configurable via a script, so I could do outfit(optimize(foo,bar,bah,zub)). If I understand correctly what you're describing.

You can already maximize multiple stats, just separate them with commas. The dropdown list is intended as a set of examples, not as an exhaustive list of what you can maximize.

dj_d · Jul 21, 2009

Erm. Right. I meant it's missing from Item Drop.

bigevildan · Jul 21, 2009

It shows up just fine for me. Are you sure your data files are up to date?

xKiv · Jul 21, 2009

jasonharper said:
You can already maximize multiple stats, just separate them with commas.

As tiebreakers (not counting methods like Big-M or small-epsilon ...)?
I.e. with "meat, items" it would always choose 21% meat over 20% meat, no matter how better the +items would be?

Also: how do I keep it from suggesting using items I don't have and equipping items I don't have access to (because I am in HC ... or in ronin and don't want to pull them).
Also also: "equip weapon 17-alarm Saucepan, keep off-hand scratch 'n' sniff crossbow" ... what? (melee weapon + ranged off-weapon)

jasonharper · Jul 21, 2009

If you maximize "meat, items", the score being maximized would be the sum of your meat drop and item drop. It would choose 21% meat over 20% meat as long as doing so would reduce your item drop by no more than 1%. If you wanted it to choose that extra 1% meat regardless of how much it would hurt your item drop (but still wanted item drop to be as high as possible otherwise), you'd need to give a lot higher weight to the meat drop - perhaps "1000 meat, item", or equivalently "meat, 0.001 item".

There's certainly still room for improvement in deciding whether a given effect boost is actually possible to acquire, but for equipment it is only considering things you have already. Please give an example of an equipment suggestion it made for something you don't have in inventory.

Bale · Jul 21, 2009

dj_d said:
Erm. Right. I meant it's missing from Item Drop.

It's probably missing from Item Drop because it costs more than 20,000 meat. There's a little box in the dialog you can use to increase the maximum purchase price. Put 300000 in that box and it will show up.

Rinn · Jul 21, 2009

Bors · Jul 22, 2009

Maybe this is more detail than you want to include, but if you don't have the skill Spirit of Rigatoni. The modifier will still suggest a staff, this would be fine if it equips the glove first, but it will try to equip the weapon first, and fail.

xKiv · Jul 22, 2009

jasonharper said:
If you maximize "meat, items", the score being maximized would be the sum of your meat drop and item drop. It would choose 21% meat over 20% meat as long as doing so would reduce your item drop by no more than 1%.

I was just poking at dj_d's request for configurable tiebreakers.

If you wanted it to choose that extra 1% meat regardless of how much it would hurt your item drop (but still wanted item drop to be as high as possible otherwise), you'd need to give a lot higher weight to the meat drop - perhaps "1000 meat, item", or equivalently "meat, 0.001 item".

That's what I meant by Big-M and small-epsilon, yes.

There's certainly still room for improvement in deciding whether a given effect boost is actually possible to acquire, but for equipment it is only considering things you have already. Please give an example of an equipment suggestion it made for something you don't have in inventory.

It's better now. When I tried it last (7475) it kept suggesting stainless steel slacks, which I have ... in Hagnk's (while in HC). Now (7478) it's keeping my current pants instead.

matt.chugg · Jul 24, 2009

If I run "adv" is suggests I keep whatever I have in my offhand, instead of suggesting my second time sword?

also, with accessories, in preious builds for "adv" it suggested imitation watch, tp reindeer and tp meat car, however in the latest daily build it doens't know about the tp bitchin meat car?

aslo, once I have full time trappings outfit on, it suggests I equip a sword beyond anappropriate prepositions instead of the already equipped time sword.

however, I LOVE this feature, excelent work!

HippoKing · Jul 25, 2009

jasonharper said:
1. What's the current status of the belief that a single piece of Brimstone gives no ML bonus? I'd heard that this had been changed, or found to be incorrect, but it's still being claimed as true on the Wiki.

I just tested this using the dwarf war-gear. A noob cave rabbit is 1 ML without a single Brimstone piece, and 3 ML with one. I tried with Brooch and Bracelet. ML is 5 with both.

2. Is it absolutely confirmed that the Disembodied Hand never counts toward Brimstone bonuses? I'm not sure if whoever originally claimed this was aware that only distinct pieces of Brimstone count, so they might have been testing with a Bludgeon in their own hand too.

I believe so.

Bale · Jul 25, 2009

matt.chugg said:
If I run "adv" is suggests I keep whatever I have in my offhand, instead of suggesting my second time sword?

That's right. It isn't finished yet. It won't yet suggest off-hand items. If you look at the top of the list of suggested items it actually says "off-hand and familiar items aren't considered yet."

matt.chugg · Jul 26, 2009

Bale said:
That's right. It isn't finished yet. It won't yet suggest off-hand items. If you look at the top of the list of suggested items it actually says "off-hand and familiar items aren't considered yet."

my bad! my apologies!

however I think my other 2 points are valid?

Bale · Jul 26, 2009

Jason,

Concerning the maximizer I've got one tiny request: Could you have it not suggest buffs to purchase from the mall when I am in hardcore? It makes it hard to find the items that I have in my inventory when they're in the midst of such a huge list of items that I cannot use.

Thanks,
Bale.

Bale · Jul 27, 2009

Now, that's a fast implementation. Thanks Jason.

Bale · Jul 28, 2009

There's still one aching problem with the maximizer, namely that its results are not available in a script.

Could you implement something like one of these

item [slot] maximize(string keyword_list) - a full list of equipment that would maximize
string maximize(string keyword_list) - outputs a list of equip, unequip suitable for providing to whatif

It would be awesome to be able to do

Code:

item [slot] maximize_moxie = maximize("moxie");
foreach slot in maximize_moxie
   test_hp(maximize_moxie[slot]);

Spiny · Jul 29, 2009

I was poking around exploring the maximizer tool. I realize this is a work in progress and things are being tweaked etc. Here's what caught my eye while looking up Item Drops WITHOUT selecting the box that says "effects with no direct source, skills you don't have, etc."

* Sea salt scrubs is being suggested as a shirt. I guess this is a case of the tie-breaker in effect as I don't have grateful undead t-shirt or flaming pink shirt.

* acquire and use 1 outrageous sombrero - I never heard of this so I looked it up in the wiki, it's a non-tradeable hat that offers a once a day effect called La Bamba for +3% item drop. Perhaps this is one of those special case sorts of things? I don't have this item, and being non-tradeable (and theoretically obsolete) probably can't acquire it anywhere. I don't think it should be showing up unless I had checked the little box off to show me things I can't readily use/have.

* Chorale/Thingfinder. I have these skills, but I'm only lv 14 right now and can't make use of the buffs so they probably shouldn't be showing up yet

* gong roach itemdrop? My thought of maximize would be insta-use in that I buy or already have something and use it for instant gratification. Granted roach form is only 3 turns, but perhaps anything like this that requires an up front turn-cost should have it listed separately with expected adventure cost noted so that uninformed users may be aware in advance of buying/using all the other buffs of interest that are instant use.

* eat 1 tempura broccoli - I don't have tempuramancy, nor do I have any tempura broccoli. However I do have 1 sea broccoli. I think this is a matching issue like the two teddy bears was

This should have been acquire and eat. It showed up properly for my friend who does not have sea broccoli.

The rest of the suggestions I saw seemed spot on.

Thanks for all your hard work!!

-Spiny

jasonharper · Jul 29, 2009

Bale: if you don't want the Maximizer to suggest things that would have side-effects such as losing HP, tell it so! For example:
maximize moxie, 0.01 maximum HP <your current HP> min

Spiny said:
* Sea salt scrubs is being suggested as a shirt. I guess this is a case of the tie-breaker in effect as I don't have grateful undead t-shirt or flaming pink shirt.

Right. Run it with "-tie" added to the expression to see what it would do without the tiebreaker.

Spiny said:
* acquire and use 1 outrageous sombrero - I never heard of this so I looked it up in the wiki, it's a non-tradeable hat that offers a once a day effect called La Bamba for +3% item drop. Perhaps this is one of those special case sorts of things? I don't have this item, and being non-tradeable (and theoretically obsolete) probably can't acquire it anywhere. I don't think it should be showing up unless I had checked the little box off to show me things I can't readily use/have.

Non-tradeable does not imply non-acquirable - it might be possible to create such an item from buyable ingredients. However, the fact that this item isn't creatable means that it should be omitted from the list. Will fix.

Spiny said:
* Chorale/Thingfinder. I have these skills, but I'm only lv 14 right now and can't make use of the buffs so they probably shouldn't be showing up yet

Yeah, more special cases to add...

Spiny said:
* gong roach itemdrop? My thought of maximize would be insta-use in that I buy or already have something and use it for instant gratification. Granted roach form is only 3 turns, but perhaps anything like this that requires an up front turn-cost should have it listed separately with expected adventure cost noted so that uninformed users may be aware in advance of buying/using all the other buffs of interest that are instant use.

Sure, I just need to come up with a way to display this (and other pieces of critical data that people have requested) in approximately zero area.

Spiny said:
* eat 1 tempura broccoli - I don't have tempuramancy, nor do I have any tempura broccoli. However I do have 1 sea broccoli. I think this is a matching issue like the two teddy bears was This should have been acquire and eat. It showed up properly for my friend who does not have sea broccoli.

Unable to duplicate; with all the ingredients but lacking the skill, it's showing up as "acquire & eat" for me.

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