New Content - Implemented Monster Manuel as monster spading tool

Veracity

Developer
Staff member
I thought I'd retired, but this item has drawn me back in to a little project. In particular, we've had imprecise or missing or outright wrong data about a variety of monsters in monster.txt for a long time. Monster Manuel allows us to have accurate Attack, Defense, and HP values for monsters. I greatly appreciate lost's submit that reads Monster Manuel's data and updates the current monster's stats from what it displays, but not everyone will have the item, and we really should have correct data in monsters.txt.

So, I have determined to use Monster Manuel to investigate as many monsters as I can and Make It So in monsters.txt.

In monsters.txt, our "standard" way to list those data has long been "HP: XX Def: XX Atk: XX". That is the opposite order that Monster Manual lists the values. So, I'm going to validate - or correct - entries and will submit them as "Atk: XX Def: XX HP: XX" as a sign that the entry has been checked.

To start this project, I went and researched hundreds of monsters that were available in aftercore. Then, even though I loathe Zombie Slayer, I dove into a ZS ascension, with the intent of collecting the stats for the various Zombie Hunters. I currently have 14 of 15 of them; the last should arrive first thing tomorrow; I just hit L15.

The Big Island battlefield has long had incomplete monster stats. It also has a varying gradient of monsters that appear: it starts out with "easy" monsters. As you progress, harder ones gradually start appearing and the easiest ones gradually stop appearing. I've never seen that written up, so I'm taking the opportunity to investigate that a bit, too, with this project. For this ascension, I am intentionally slowing down the war to a crawl: I am in the process of fighting 999 hippies, one at a time, and when I finish, I will do the same for the frat boys. This will also maximize my chance of seeing war heroes, I expect.

I have some interesting data already on the battlefield. My next post will include it, for your amusement.
 

Erich

Member
One of the things Manuel allows for is a precise account of how Ratsworth and the NS scales per ascension.
 

Veracity

Developer
Staff member
You can fight the war as either a Hippy or a Frat Boy. Except for the specific monsters, the experience is identical either way: You start out meeting one of half a dozen or so opponents. As you progress on the battlefield, you start meeting tougher opponents and eventually stop meeting the weaker opponents. Thus, each war combatant has both a "minimum turn" and a "maximum turn at which they will appear.

I looked at all my session logs for 2011 and 2012 - scores of ascensions - and noticed the battlefield turn at which I first and last noticed a particular monster. Since each monster has a Hippy version and a Frat version, I was able to combine the data for both monsters and increase the number of samples. I append what I have gleaned. Note that almost all of my ascensions involved doing some number of side quests for one side or the other, so the "turn quantum" became 2 or 4 or 8 or 16, the deeper into the war I got.

Some observations / discoveries / bugs:

- I initially thought that monsters would start appearing or stop appearing at boundaries corresponding to the battlefield images. I no longer think so. I think they are on boundaries of 25 or 50. I have seen hundreds of samples asymptotically approaching 400, say, from above, with nothing between 372 and 400.
- Each side has a monster which is identical in combat stats with a monster from the other side, with the identical minimum and maximum. I list each such pair. The single exception would be the Naughty Sorority Nurse, which is the equivalent of the War Hippy Naturopathic Homeopath, but which has, I believe, fewer HPs - because of her self-healing power. I have not yet encountered her with my Monster Manuel, so I don't have her combat stats yet.
- The data listed for the War Heroes is simply the supposed "first image" in which they appear. I've only seen one with Monster Manuel so far, so only one has combat stats listed.
- Bailey's Beetle & War Frat Mobile Grill Unit only appear once you have completed the Junkyard sidequest.
- I faxed in and fought a Bailey's Beetle. The war happened to be going on - and I had the War Frat uniform on, in case that matters - and KoLmafia did not count it as a war kill for the frat boys. I carefully visited the island at appropriate times and looked at images and discovered that, sure enough, it DID count as a war kill.

The data so far:

War Hippy Infantryman / War Frat 151st Infantryman
Atk: 170 Def: 175 HP: 185
(1-400)

War Hippy Baker / War Frat 500th Infantrygentleman
Atk: 175 Def: 170 HP: 185
(1-575)

War Hippy Rigger / War Frat 110th Infantryman
Atk: 172 Def: 172 HP: 185
(1-775)

War Hippy Dread Squad / War Frat Kegrider
Atk: 170 Def: 170 HP: 300
(1-848)

War Hippy Homeopath / Sorority Nurse
Atk: 170 Def: 175 HP: 200
(1-896)

War Hippy Windtalker / Sorority Operator
Atk: 185 Def: 180 HP: 200
(1-951)

---

War Hippy Shaman / War Frat Grill Sergeant
Atk: 190 Def: 165 HP: 100
(29-688)

War Hippy F.R.O.G. / War Frat 151st Captain
Atk: 180 Def: 185 HP: 205
(51-495)

War Hippy Sky Captain / War Frat Wartender
Atk: 185 Def: 175 HP: 200
(75-543)

War Hippy Fire Spinner / Beer Bongadier
Atk: 180 Def: 195 HP: 210
(104-648)

Mobile Armored Sweat Lodge / Heavy Kegtank
Atk: 180 Def: 180 HP: 300
(152-999)

War Hippy Green Gourmet / War Frat Elite 500th Captain
Atk: 185 Def: 190 HP: 210
(200-744)

War Hippy Elder Shaman / War Frat Senior Grill Sergeant
Atk: 210 Def: 170 HP: 120
(256-999)

War Hippy Elite Rigger / War Frat Elite 110th Captain
Atk: 190 Def: 190 HP: 215
(303-999)

War Hippy Airborne Commander / War Frat Elite Wartender
Atk: 195 Def: 185 HP: 220
(351-999)

Green Ops Soldier / Panty Raider Frat Boy
Atk: 200 Def: 200 HP: 250
(400-999)

Naughty Sorority Nurse / War Hippy Naturopathic Homeopath
Atk: 180 Def: 185 HP: 220
(452-999)

War Hippy Elite Fire Spinner / Elite Beer Bongadier
Atk: 190 Def: 205 HP: 230
(544-999)

---

Slow Talkin' Elliot / Next-generation Frat Boy
Atk: 190 Def: 190 HP: 200
(458)

Neil / Monty Basingstoke-Pratt, IV
(606)

Zim Merman / Brutus, the toga-clad lout
(658)

C.A.R.N.I.V.O.R.E. Operative / Danglin' Chad
(766)

Glass of Orange Juice / War Frat Streaker
(880)

---

Bailey's Beetle / War Frat Mobile Grill Unit
Atk: 195 Def: 195 HP: 210
 

lostcalpolydude

Developer
Staff member
- I faxed in and fought a Bailey's Beetle. The war happened to be going on - and I had the War Frat uniform on, in case that matters - and KoLmafia did not count it as a war kill for the frat boys. I carefully visited the island at appropriate times and looked at images and discovered that, sure enough, it DID count as a war kill.

I was going to ask if you remembered whether there was an end-of-combat message indicating that it was part of the war quest, but you have to complete a sidequest for those to show up at all.
 

Crowther

Active member
I'm trying to collect all the heroes this run as well.

Neil is Atk: 195 Def: 175 HP: 240
Zim is Atk: 200 Def: 180 HP: 280
 

Veracity

Developer
Staff member
Outstanding! I think my data and apologue's data mesh very nicely. And I like his observation about the war heroes appearing in a particular window of 100 adventures or not at all.

And Crowther - thanks for the data. Note that the Manuel reports "defense * .9". So, I now have the following data for the heroes:

Slow Talkin' Elliot / Next-generation Frat Boy
Atk: 190 Def: 190 HP: 200
(500-599)

Neil / Monty Basingstoke-Pratt, IV
Atk: 195 Def: 195 HP: 240
(600-699)

Zim Merman / Brutus, the toga-clad lout
Atk: 200 Def: 200 HP: 280
(700-799)

C.A.R.N.I.V.O.R.E. Operative / Danglin' Chad
(800-899)

Glass of Orange Juice / War Frat Streaker
(900-999)

I see a pattern and have a prediction for the last two tiers...
 
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Theraze

Active member
I have a Neil after 601 kills on 2011/11/10. Confirmed that the 606-kill 'Watch for Neil!' message came after.
[2373] Battlefield (Frat Uniform)
Encounter: Neil
1 hippy defeated; 606 down, 394 left.
Keep your eyes open for Neil!
> Look! You found 1 bullet-proof corduroys (475μ)!
> +1 hippiesDefeated ( 606 / 1000 )
> Step 0 adventures remaining: 394
> You are on Frat-slaying pic 0.
> You are on Hippy-slaying pic 24

[2378] Battlefield (Frat Uniform)
You beat all my other best-hero times though. :)
 

Crowther

Active member
(I knew I saw that somewhere ... drove me nuts until I googled)
I wanted to post that link too, but last time I looked for it I ended up pulling out hair before I found it. Why didn't I save the link?
And Crowther - thanks for the data. Note that the Manuel reports "defense * .9". So, I now have the following data for the heroes:
Oh, right. I forgot about that.

EDIT:

Oh, drat. If they only show up in a 100 kill range, I missed some hippie heroes already.
 
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Winterbay

Active member
To start this project, I went and researched hundreds of monsters that were available in aftercore. Then, even though I loathe Zombie Slayer, I dove into a ZS ascension, with the intent of collecting the stats for the various Zombie Hunters. I currently have 14 of 15 of them; the last should arrive first thing tomorrow; I just hit L15.

You could've asked any one of us who are currently doing zombie runs if you dislike it that much :)
If there are any monsters you want to get "crowd sourced" I guess you could just mention it and there would be someone with the data or willing to get it.
 

Crowther

Active member
Danglin' Chad Att: 210 Def(90%): 189 HP: 320
War Frat Streaker Att: 220 Def(90%): 198 HP: 350

I've missed two heroes and spent over 100 tattered scraps trying to find one I'd already seen. I'm not doing it right.
 

Veracity

Developer
Staff member
You know, yesterday I enjoyed looking at the Monster Manuel entries on the Wiki. And I thought to myself that perhaps we could use those to figure out the real monster stats for monsters that I have not yet collected. But, a few things made me suspicious.

- The Wiki's Manuel entry for Felonia says Attack 60 Defense 75 HP 115.
The Wiki's monster page for Felonia says Attack 60 Defense 68 HP 115.
My Monster Manuel says Attack 75 Defense 67 HP 80 - which corresponds to 75/75/80.

- The Wiki's Manuel entry for Higher Plane Serpents says Attack 145 Defense 145 HP 150.
The Wiki's monster page for Higher Plane Serpents says Attack 145 Defense 131 HP 150.
My Monster Manuel says Attack 145 Defense 130 HP 150 - which corresponds to 145/145/150.

It looks to me like some of the WIki's Monster Manuel entry is fabricated out of data from the Wiki's monster page - which may or may not be correct - and some of it actually uses data that somebody entered by hand - hopefully from looking at their Monster Manuel.

Looking at the source on the Wiki, I see examples:

Code:
{{ManuelEntry|Felonia, Queen of the Spooky Gravy Fairies|*Queen Felonia has a 2nd-dan black belt in Slashing Your Face With a Broken Bottle-Fu.
*Since the fall of the Spookyraven family, Felonia is regarded as the Kingdom's premier goth. Honestly, you'd be pretty gothy too if you lived in an underground cave filled with little skull-faced toadstool fairies.
*You may find it difficult to correlate Felonia's image to the description given -- after all, what is particularly hot about a mushroom with lipstick? This is because you're seeing her without her fairy glamour, which may explain why she's so ticked off.}}
vs.
Code:
{{ManuelEntry|flock of seagulls|*The average airspeed velocity is 28 mph, if it's not carrying a coconut.|attack=95|defense=85|hp=120}}
The entry for Felonia includes no raw numbers. Instead, it references the Wiki page.
The entry for the flock of seagulls includes raw numbers - and on the Wiki page the stats are unknown.

So, even though people went to the trouble of entering all those factoids, they frequently didn't bother to enter the numbers from the actual Manuel. Instead, they pointed to the Wiki's monster page - which is frequently wrong.

Considering that essentially all of the bad data in monsters.txt came from the Wiki, it would have been nice to correct it with actual Monster Manuel entries from there - but the Wiki doesn't show you those. They make up the Manuel entry from the existing wrong data.

Too bad. I/we will just have to collect Monster Manuel entries ourself, it seems.
 

Crowther

Active member
Thanks! What do you have for the Naughty Sorority Nurse?
Those things are a pain!
Naughty Sorority Nurse:
Att:: 180 Def(90%): 166 HP: 160

Considering that essentially all of the bad data in monsters.txt came from the Wiki, it would have been nice to correct it with actual Monster Manuel entries from there - but the Wiki doesn't show you those. They make up the Manuel entry from the existing wrong data.

Too bad. I/we will just have to collect Monster Manuel entries ourself, it seems.
Sigh. I'm not surprised. Erich and I have been collecting pretty seriously. I'll see if I can whip up a script to scrape my MM and check monsters.txt against that.
 
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Veracity

Developer
Staff member
That would be great! Finally, a reliable source of data! :)

I've been collecting, too, but I haven't gone out of my way to fax in unavailable monsters or consume antique items or anything like that. I'm also on my first ascension since I bought the item; I have a long way to go to even see many monsters for the first time.

You have casually researched 68 creatures.
You have thoroughly researched 25 creatures.
You have exhaustively researched 438 creatures.

Note that if you scrape Atk, Def, and HP from the Manuel pages, you can calculate the full defense like this: ceil( defense / 0.9 ). I'd be happy just to get a list of monster like this:

monster name :: Atk: X Def: Y HP: Z

... and for non-scaling monsters I will simply replace what we have in monsters.txt with the data you supply.

Thanks!
 

Crowther

Active member
Wow. That was some seriously ugly hacking I just did, but I got some useful results.
Note that if you scrape Atk, Def, and HP from the Manuel pages, you can calculate the full defense like this: ceil( defense / 0.9 ).
I tried that and had some problems. There's a monster with a raw defense of 21. The manual lists that as floor(21*.9), which is 18. ceil(18/.9) is 20 instead of 21. Information is lost. I the end, I kept everything as 90% until the final output, then I convert. If the conversion is unclear, I output both numbers. It's ugly.

As you probably know, the MM doesn't worry about duplicate names, while monsters.txt tries to have unique names. Also, monsters.txt sometimes includes articles (a, an, the, some) when Manuel doesn't. I managed to ignore those articles.

I'd be happy just to get a list of monster like this:

monster name :: Atk: X Def: Y HP: Z
Okay, here's my first try. I skipped some monsters with duplicate names, because my code doesn't handle that well (nightstands, nemesis forms, protectors, etc).
Code:
ambulatory pirate :: Atk: 0 Def: 0or1 HP: 0
angry bugbear :: Atk: 15 Def: 16 HP: 12
annoying spooky gravy fairy :: Atk: 20 Def: 20or21 HP: 20
Baron von Ratsworth :: Atk: 20 Def: 20or21 HP: 25
black widow :: Atk: 132 Def: 123 HP: 121
clan of cave bars :: Atk: 30 Def: 30or31 HP: 30
Ed the Undying :: Atk: 180 Def: 180or181 HP: 1
Evil Olive :: Atk: 145 Def: 145 HP: 140
evil spaghetti cult assassin :: Atk: 95 Def: 95 HP: 120
evil spaghetti cult priest :: Atk: 24 Def: 24 HP: 21
Ghost of Fernswarthy's Grandfather :: Atk: 0 Def: 0or1 HP: 0
hunting seal :: Atk: 95 Def: 95 HP: 120
mariachi bandolero :: Atk: 95 Def: 95 HP: 120
menacing thug :: Atk: 55 Def: 55 HP: 75
migratory pirate :: Atk: 0 Def: 0or1 HP: 0
mother hellseal :: Atk: 150 Def: 150or151 HP: 150
Naughty Sorceress (2) :: Atk: 205 Def: 205 HP: 600
Orcish Frat Boy :: Atk: 40 Def: 40or41 HP: 30
pencil golem :: Atk: 15 Def: 15 HP: 11
peripatetic pirate :: Atk: 0 Def: 0or1 HP: 0
queen filthworm :: Atk: 173 Def: 173 HP: 195
Rene C. Corman :: Atk: 222 Def: 222 HP: 1000
sexy sorority ghost :: Atk: 50 Def: 50or51 HP: 100
swarm of fire ants :: Atk: 142 Def: 133 HP: 136
The Big Wisniewski :: Atk: 250 Def: 250or251 HP: 2000
The Clownlord Beelzebozo :: Atk: 27 Def: 30or31 HP: 40
The Mariachi With No Name :: Atk: 115 Def: 115 HP: 150
The Thing with No Name :: Atk: 200 Def: 250or251 HP: 1000
topiary golem :: Atk: 235 Def: 235 HP: 220
tumbleweed :: Atk: 10 Def: 10or11 HP: 10
(shadow opponent) :: Atk: 150 Def: 99999 HP: 395
Most of the Def: XorY are pretty obvious, but I didn't want my personal choices to be taken as right. One hard one is The Clownlord Beelzebozo, which the MM lists as 27/27/40. Monster.txt lists it as 28/24/40. 27 could come from either 30 or 31 raw defense. Jick likes multiples of 5, but that's not proof.

EDIT: Looks like my script got confused by "War Hippy (space) cadet". That one was already correct in monsters.txt.
 
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Erich

Member
Sigh. I'm not surprised. Erich and I have been collecting pretty seriously. I'll see if I can whip up a script to scrape my MM and check monsters.txt against that.

I'm at this point now:

You have casually researched 55 creatures.
You have thoroughly researched 87 creatures.
You have exhaustively researched 518 creatures.

So if you want, you can throw me the same script to see if we have some the other doesn't.

... stupid Butts. hrmph.
 

xKiv

Active member
... but I haven't gone out of my way to fax in unavailable monsters or consume antique items or anything like that. ...

I do. I mean, I am (faxing and antiqueueing)

Anything else in particular that an aftercore seal clubber could help with?

(Even though I only have
You have casually researched 73 creatures.
You have thoroughly researched 160 creatures.
You have exhaustively researched 378 creatures.)
 
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