Someone trying to profit from my work

dj_d

Member
Someone was kind enough to forward me this unpleasant email that s/he found in his kmailbox from Byrn:

From Byrn (#2041450) [reply] [quoted]
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 03:13PM
Hey,
I bought an automated ascention script (with an awesome farming script and other stuff) for one Mr. A awhile back. I edited a bit to what is easier to work with and a bit better (I think). I'd like to cover my costs and was wondering if you'd like to buy it. I'll be willing to sell it for less than the original.

[link] [link] [link] http://kolmafia.us/ showthread.php? t=1894

That is the original. I've done a lot of tweaking to make it work better, though.

Was wondering if anyone in clan may be interested. I don't mind sending it first, since this would look like a scam otherwise.

This really bums me out. People copying it without paying for it; ok, I don't like it but I get it. But charging people for my work? Man, that just harshes my happy in a big way.

</sad>
 

Sputnik1

Member
dont you get notices of who uses your script, i would think it would make it easier to see who is using it without giving a Mr A, though I guess it might be easy enough to script that out of it
 

Grotfang

Developer
The point is that dj_d put a large amount of work into this script and (if you read the relevant threads) you will see that the authors he borrows scripts from (mainly zarqon) are comfortable with the arrangement.

This guys seems to think he deserves to profit without doing the work - which is very shitty.
 

Grotfang

Developer
Jatopian said:
Unless dj_d is also trying to profit from his scripts, I don't see your point...

Well, he is. That was the point.

But, by the same logic, because text editors are free, any work produced on them must also be free?

Zarqon's scripts are freely available, as are EatDrink.ash and LevelUp.ash. What people pay for is not those scripts, but rather the suite of scripts (including the unique ones that he wrote). The other scripts are included for simplicity, and also to ensure that it is obvious which versions of them are supported, but they are NOT the ones that are paid for.

In addition, farm.ash is only available by paying for it and, in my opinion, rightly so. It is a good script and one that will (in all likelihood) earn its meat cost back in returns. Finally, the subsequent support dj_d supplies makes it more of a good deal.

In short, every script writer can choose whether to charge for their work or not. If it's not worth paying for, then don't. There is no obligation to use these scripts. Your personal view of whether you want to charge or not is one you make alone - not one you can dictate to others. People don't have an inherent right to someone's work. If it is given freely, then fantastic. If not, then so be it.
 

bumcheekcity

Active member
I was unaware I told dj_d that he should or shouldn't charge for his work. Just pointing out a degree of hypocrisy in using work by other people and charging for it. In real life, this statement would be accompanied with a noncommitted shrug. Nobody can do anything about it either way, so who gives a damn?
 

Grotfang

Developer
I was unaware I told dj_d that he should or shouldn't charge for his work. Just pointing out a degree of hypocrisy in using work by other people and charging for it.

You miss my point. There is no hypocrisy, since he is charging for his work, not others'. Other scripts are included for convenience, but are still available for free in their respective threads. Would it help you if they were bundled into two zip files? One with a password (his work) and one without (others').
 

adeyke

Member
There are two separate issues here that are getting conflated: selling something that uses other people's scripts and distributing something that someone else is selling. The two aren't the same thing, and dj_d doing the former doesn't make it okay for Byrn to do the latter (in addition to the former).

If I may hazard a guess, I think that, if Byrn were selling strictly an add-on script, such that you get pay dj_d for ascend.ash and then also pay Byrn for the added functionality, there wouldn't be a problem. However, instead, Byrn is both getting profit from dj_d's script and depriving dj_d of the money for it.
 
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Bale

Minion
All of the third party scripts bundled in ascend.ash were done so with the full consent of the authors. (Entirely zarqon, unless he's gotten around to including my newLife.) We know that he's added them to his suite and he has made no changes to them. They're the same as if you downloaded them from this site. It is merely more convenient that dj_d has included them. There's nothing remotely unethical about that.

By contrast Byrn has not asked for dj_d's permission.
 

Catch-22

Active member
Because they're all derivative works of an open source project, I don't believe anyone should be charging for them.

As for this guy, sure he might be a jackass but it looks like everyone is just out to make a quick buck. Does it really matter if he deprives you of one or two Mr. Accessories? I doubt the level of support received will be anywhere near what you offer, and those who take him up on the offer will soon find that out.

If you never charged for the script to begin with, it looks like this would've never been a problem. I doubt he would be trying to sell something that you can get for free (although that does happen too).

Also I'm not saying it's just dj_d who is to blame either. Holatuwol even suggested at Mr. Accessory bounties for big script writers in the early days.
 
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Veracity

Developer
Staff member
Because they're all derivative works of an open source project, I don't believe anyone should be charging for them.
When I read this comment earlier today, I ALMOST posted a message suggesting that people send ME a Mr. Accessory. I mean, I've donated, oh, 4,000+ hours of my time over the last 4.5 years to this project. Since I charge $75-100+ per hour on consulting contracts, that's at least 30,000 Mr. A's, right?

Except, I did it because I wanted to do it. I wanted to help the community. And, frankly, it's what kept me interested in KoL, after all these years.

People have given me some very nice gifts over the years, including a feather boa constrictor and a dodecapede - and 2 or 3 Mr. A's. But, you know, I'm not in it for the bucks.

Programming is a skilled profession (or is it "merely" a trade? In any case, it requires skill, experience, and raw talent to do well.) And, in my opinion, anybody who wishes to charge for their hours, rather than donate them, is OK. (I'm not Richard Stallman, who once told me to my face that I was "evil" because I worked for a company that charged money for software.) If dj_d had chosen to donate his ascension script to the public, that would have been very cool. Instead, he chose to sell it for a measley price, considering the many many hours of work he put into it, and that is fine, too.

I am a fervent believer in intellectual property rights: they belong to the creator of the intellectual property and the CREATOR - not the consumer - gets to choose the terms of distribution. I have never, ever - not even once! - downloaded pirated music or software - and I have nothing but contempt for those who do so. If the creator of intellectual property chooses to make his/her work freely available, more power to them. In that case, by all means - take their work for free! But if they choose other terms for distribution, that is their right, and if you choose not to abide by their wishes, you are a thief, pure and simple, and have - and deserve! - my contempt.

Byrn is a thief.

By the way, Catch-22 - Hola suggested a Mr. A as the MINIMUM price for writing a script for somebody. NOT as the price for a "big script".
 

Catch-22

Active member
Well, let's say a hundred people have given dj_d a Mr. Accessory, that's roughly $1000 USD for what is essentially a bunch of glue code that pieces together most of the scripts which have been made freely available on this forum.

I'm a full-time web developer/programmer and that's enough money to pay my wage for two working weeks, 9am-5:30pm. I understand wanting to be reimbursed for one's time, but at which point does it simply become plain old profiteering?

What if Byrn had spent 2 working weeks modifying dj_d's code? Perhaps completely rewriting the glue code? Who is to say that he shouldn't be reimbursed for his time?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Byrn, nor do I condone his actions, but where do you draw the line? dj_d is profiting from the thousands of hours of work other people have put in to KoLmafia.
 
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Grotfang

Developer
Well, let's say a hundred people have given dj_d a Mr. Accessory, that's roughly $1000 USD for what is essentially a bunch of glue code that pieces together most of the scripts which have been made freely available on this forum.

...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Byrn, nor do I condone his actions, but where do you draw the line? dj_d is profiting from the thousands of hours of work other people have put in to KoLmafia.

But this is where you are wrong. The scripts dj_d uses that aren't his own are STILL freely available. He is NOT charging for these. You say he (only) wrote the glue code, and this is precisely what he is charging for. If it is simple enough to do oneself, then people wouldn't pay him for it. Can you not see the logic in that?

What if Byrn had spent 2 working weeks modifying dj_d's code? Perhaps completely rewriting the glue code? Who is to say that he shouldn't be reimbursed for his time?

You are entirely right, but the difference between the two is that dj_d gave zarqon and others the script BEFORE he released it, ensuring a reputable peer review process, as well as making sure that the individuals whose code was used were happy with the arrangement. Byrn has done no such thing - for all we know he's just changed the user preferences slightly. And that is entirely the point of this discussion.

Dj_d went through the proper channels and his code is something people deem to be worth paying for. As far as we can tell, Bryn is simply reselling work from someone else - as well as not getting permission to do so from the original authors (something dj_d did do).
 

Catch-22

Active member
Sorry, let me be clear. I am not talking about this particular instance, or any instance for that matter. I am talking about profiting from scripts in general, so I guess it's a little off-topic.

... his code is something people deem to be worth paying for.

Here is the big question. Should we be paying what we think the script is worth, OR should we be reimbursing the scripter for their time.

Let's say it takes me 5 minutes to bang up a script that will magically make you 6mil meat per day in only 10 adventures, wow!

Is that script worth only 5 minutes of my time, or is it worth 10 Mr. Accessories because you'll easily make that money back in a week?

Okay let's take another scenario.

You might think dj_d's script is worth 10 bucks, because it saves you several hours a week, your time is worth money, therefore dj_d's script is a bargain because it saves you time (and money)!

Now what if that 10 dollars became an ongoing cost? What if it was a 10 dollar monthly subscription fee? Well surely - it IS saving you many hours per month, so it's worth it, right?

So a hundred people agree with you on that, now dj_d is making a thousand bucks per month. Is it right then?
 

Grotfang

Developer
I can see where you are coming from, but the straw man makes things hard to approach sensibly. Let's be realistic here - a monthly subscription is impossible to enforce and I sincerely doubt dj_d is making thousands a month from this. Finally, remember that a Mr. A is not transferable back into cash.

Anyways, I will try to explain better.

Here is the big question. Should we be paying what we think the script is worth, OR should we be reimbursing the scripter for their time.

This misses the point as it assumes it is the consumer who should be able to apply their values and pre-conceptions to the release of a script. This is not the case. The producer is the one who gets to decide that. If the author thinks s/he should be paid for their time, then they can charge an amount that reflects that. If they would rather charge according to what they think the benefits would be, then that's fine too.

There is, however, the obvious limitation that a simple (read, quick to produce) and amazingly useful script will be replicated fast and for free, so inevitably time and usefulness will run hand in hand when it comes to cost. A useless script won't be bought and an easy one will be done for free. This means charging will rarely be unfair to consumers.

There are two lines of argument expressed above which I want to stress are the cornerstones of my belief here. I will highlight them to really drive them home.

1) My belief in protecting producers:

Code:
The creator should be able to decide what their work is worth.

2) My belief that the consumer will be protected:

Code:
Useless work won't be bought and easy work will be done for free, or cheaply.

Which of those two statements do you disagree with and why?
 

mottsy

Member
Well, let's say a hundred people have given dj_d a Mr. Accessory, that's roughly $1000 USD for what is essentially a bunch of glue code


Oh boy, i was laughing when i read that catch


1.1000 dollars of what is essentially virtual money (MR A's) DJ cannot go to the supermarkets and buy his groceries with 10 mr A's

2. Oh how i love this glue code thing, do you know why?

C++ , java, pearl, are also programming languages, used by the people who are making programs and games

What you are basicly saying is that all software should be free because the programmers did not make their own programming language


You sicken me catch 22

He put heaps of effort into this, if you are too cheap to pay for it, then don't use it
 
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